Storm-Chaser
New Member
Well, edit it so it's not so "apparent" and doesn't get deleted . . . .
Cylinder Number 5 Again (Bearings)
- Thread starter egroce11
- Start date
Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.
gmail
Well-Known Member
good thing i downloaded it once i seen the link
gmorrell
Never been a noob...
Ernie,
here's my suggestion for what to do with this wet sump configuration.
I like Jason's approach: Get the big-ass Mocal marine thermostatic sandwich adapter from BATinc, and plumb an oil cooler on -10 or -12 lines.
I'd suggest using a Canton Racing spin-on filter, such as this one rated at 15GPM:
http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=25-262
Or this one, rated at 45GPM. This one's pretty large, 6&1/4" long, but it ought to fit on the Mocal sandwich adapter because you're losing the stock oil cooler:
http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=25-462
These Canton units use replaceable filter cartridges. I'd suggest using the largest that will fit, as the more filter surface area you have, the lower the surface face velocity of the fluid, which gives better filtration.
You might want to ask Jason what he did to adapt the Mocal sandwich adapter extension sleeve to the block, as the block thread is M20-something straight thread, and the original oil cooler stem changes this to 3/4" -16 thread for a standard FL-1A style filter. If you have to go all M20, then all it does is change the thread of the filter you buy from Canton. You may have to source an M20 straight thread pipe ******. BAT may have something, be sure to ask.
I think the above is going to be the KISS principle solution for you, as any sort of remote filter with oil cooler and remote oil thermostat adds mucho plumbing, weight, complexity, and potential for leaks and failure.
PM me if you have more questions, and we can get in touch off-forum.
here's my suggestion for what to do with this wet sump configuration.
I like Jason's approach: Get the big-ass Mocal marine thermostatic sandwich adapter from BATinc, and plumb an oil cooler on -10 or -12 lines.
I'd suggest using a Canton Racing spin-on filter, such as this one rated at 15GPM:
http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=25-262
Or this one, rated at 45GPM. This one's pretty large, 6&1/4" long, but it ought to fit on the Mocal sandwich adapter because you're losing the stock oil cooler:
http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=25-462
These Canton units use replaceable filter cartridges. I'd suggest using the largest that will fit, as the more filter surface area you have, the lower the surface face velocity of the fluid, which gives better filtration.
You might want to ask Jason what he did to adapt the Mocal sandwich adapter extension sleeve to the block, as the block thread is M20-something straight thread, and the original oil cooler stem changes this to 3/4" -16 thread for a standard FL-1A style filter. If you have to go all M20, then all it does is change the thread of the filter you buy from Canton. You may have to source an M20 straight thread pipe ******. BAT may have something, be sure to ask.
I think the above is going to be the KISS principle solution for you, as any sort of remote filter with oil cooler and remote oil thermostat adds mucho plumbing, weight, complexity, and potential for leaks and failure.
PM me if you have more questions, and we can get in touch off-forum.
gmail
Well-Known Member
not trying to be rude on this but any oil filter that cost $104 isnt a solution id personally use.
could their be another solution ?
could their be another solution ?
Pat gave me a shortened adapter like you had made in the past. Mocal had the correct extension to fit the stock setup. Hope that helps.
That's not a standard filter and it has a replaceable filter inside. IIRC, it does not have a by-pass system in it as it is touted to flow enough oil to not need it.
gmorrell
Never been a noob...
Not one that's guaranteed to have the flow-vs-pressure drop characteristics that Ernie needs to keep his engine alive. If a $104 oil filter keeps a $4000 race engine running, is it worth it?
Ernie isn't twitting around on the street racing stoplight to stoplight, or running at high load for 12 seconds down the 1/4 mile. He's using his engine at wide open throttle, high RPM, 110% load for 5 or 6 minutes at a time. The thermal and lubrication stresses in this sort of racing are unimaginable to those who haven't dealt with trying to keep an engine alive under these circumstances.
Racing is expensive. Going fast once costs money, going fast repeatably and reliably costs more money, but engineering for reliability from the git-go is always less expensive in the end.
Ernie, have been following your exploits for some time (and rubbing it in with the Datsun nuts here at work ;-)
In addition to some of the great pointers you've received, I would find the article from a few years ago (early 2000's) published in the SCCA rag on how to make journal bearings live at high rpm. They used as an example a 3 inch stroke engine IIRC, pretty close to our 80 mm stroke (yours might be a tad lower). The key issue is that the oil in the crank throw gets accelerated by centrifugal forces at high rpm faster than the pump can supply it. Not sure if its been mentioned but use the 3.2 liter oil pump for its higher volume.
Having worked in journal bearings in refrigeration compressors, you need to shoot for the low end of the clearance spec (as others have mentioned). I think its 0.0004 in the manual, this will help slow down the rate that the crank will fling the oil outward. At 0.002 you are at the high end of the spec which is where drag racers shoot for minimum bearing drag, nfg for long periods at high rpm.
Can you say what crank journal diameter you're using? I might be able to point you to a supply of bearings that can allow you to zero in on the low end of the spec. Did you cheater destroke the engine or use aftermarket rods?
One other thought, I assume you are using one of the Ishkagawa (sp?) crank scrapers (carefully clearanced to your crank), and that you've knife edged and polished the crank to help it slice through the oil and reduce its aeration.
I would also be curious what you're doing for valvetrain bits and might have some advice to offer there.
zak
In addition to some of the great pointers you've received, I would find the article from a few years ago (early 2000's) published in the SCCA rag on how to make journal bearings live at high rpm. They used as an example a 3 inch stroke engine IIRC, pretty close to our 80 mm stroke (yours might be a tad lower). The key issue is that the oil in the crank throw gets accelerated by centrifugal forces at high rpm faster than the pump can supply it. Not sure if its been mentioned but use the 3.2 liter oil pump for its higher volume.
Having worked in journal bearings in refrigeration compressors, you need to shoot for the low end of the clearance spec (as others have mentioned). I think its 0.0004 in the manual, this will help slow down the rate that the crank will fling the oil outward. At 0.002 you are at the high end of the spec which is where drag racers shoot for minimum bearing drag, nfg for long periods at high rpm.
Can you say what crank journal diameter you're using? I might be able to point you to a supply of bearings that can allow you to zero in on the low end of the spec. Did you cheater destroke the engine or use aftermarket rods?
One other thought, I assume you are using one of the Ishkagawa (sp?) crank scrapers (carefully clearanced to your crank), and that you've knife edged and polished the crank to help it slice through the oil and reduce its aeration.
I would also be curious what you're doing for valvetrain bits and might have some advice to offer there.
zak
gmorrell
Never been a noob...
John,
I have that article, it's from the August 1998 Sportscar, written by David Bowling of autocross DMod fame.
Ernie, you need a copy of this, PM me with your address and I'll get it copied and sent to you.
You could also try contacting Sportscar about a back issue:
http://www.sportscarmag.com/customer_service.asp?type=back
I doubt they have an issue this old, but they may have the article, called "Putting on the Pressure" from August 1998.
While your at it, the mains need to be brought down to the low end of the spec as well, I can help there probably as well.
Garu thanks for locating the article I was only off by a few years ;-)
Garu thanks for locating the article I was only off by a few years ;-)
egroce11
New Member
Thank you all for the info. My daughters came and gave me a break from thier mom for a few days, I've been gone since sunday morning and just got back.
I'll go thru and see if I can digest all this great info, get some msg's out to you all tonight.
I was wondering how Jason got rid of the stock oil cooler.
Thanks
Ernie
I'll go thru and see if I can digest all this great info, get some msg's out to you all tonight.
I was wondering how Jason got rid of the stock oil cooler.
Thanks
Ernie
gmorrell
Never been a noob...
I don't have a pic with the large hoses, but here is the sandwhich and cooler.
Jason, I've been meaning to ask you. Where did you get those -12 90º hose ends that go straight to a 22mm O-ring port? Did BATInc have those?
Gary, BATInc had them. You pretty much have to buy their fittings for this but they work well. Those -12AN fittings just barely fit, however, they do not touch anything around it.
Trying to stuff -12 braided hose in such small places it one **** of a chore. I'm glad I had a lift at my disposal!
Trying to stuff -12 braided hose in such small places it one **** of a chore. I'm glad I had a lift at my disposal!
Storm-Chaser
New Member
That's a sweet setup, btw . . . .
Shoaz
Studly dood
If Ernie needs a SHO crank scraper I have one available. I don't know whether it's the fancy kind Zak mentioned or has similar properties, but it's never been used. It's the one that had been a prototype for somebody and got raffled off here...I got it by guessing 69 for their magic number and it's been sitting in my garage cabinet since. I'd be happy to send it to Ernie if it's useful and needed.
sho_sc
New Member
Let me add something here that unless you have raced LSR, you may not realize.
Oil temps are all over the place.
You are only allowed to run your car in the pits, but no where else except the starting line and the track.
Imagine getting to your pits in the predawn hours ~60F. Place the SHO on jack stands allowing it to idle to raise the coolant temp to operating tempature and spin the wheels to allow the tranny to time to warm. Shutting it off to allow the push truck to push you over to the staging lanes. Waiting 2.5 hours until you get to the starting line and start your SHO with the air temp about ~85F. About 2 mintues later, coolant temp ~160 degrees, your are given the wave off to go. For the next 3 miles or so WOT with the majority of your RPMs above 6700 RPM topping out at 8600 RPM or more.
Oil temps are all over the place.
You are only allowed to run your car in the pits, but no where else except the starting line and the track.
Imagine getting to your pits in the predawn hours ~60F. Place the SHO on jack stands allowing it to idle to raise the coolant temp to operating tempature and spin the wheels to allow the tranny to time to warm. Shutting it off to allow the push truck to push you over to the staging lanes. Waiting 2.5 hours until you get to the starting line and start your SHO with the air temp about ~85F. About 2 mintues later, coolant temp ~160 degrees, your are given the wave off to go. For the next 3 miles or so WOT with the majority of your RPMs above 6700 RPM topping out at 8600 RPM or more.
Last edited:
gmail
Well-Known Member
did some exploring the other night..
found out a reason why number 3 might not be getting enough oil..
like jason said it is in fact number 3 and if what im guessing is right then it will effect all v6 SHO engines in stock form.
i had access to a torn down 3.0 and a sheet in front of me of the stock oil flow on a v6... didnt show the engine in the picture just the flow path which was in the SHO registery mag.
anyways number 3 main is almost on top of where the oil flows in from the filter and it comes in between #3 and #4 mains closer to number 3 tho, then it needs to make a quick bend to number 3 and then right after number 3 goes right to the one head but the reason i think its less flow is because its the same size as all other oil ports and its bends as soon as it makes the first bend after coming in from the oil filter.
so what im trying to say is it has to make 2 90 degree bends before its gets a chance to straighten out again and i think its causing turbulence .when it comes up from the filter and makes the first bend towards the first 3 mains and the last main then it has to make the turn again to number 3 main, it flows right past it.
my guess is widen number 3 main port out and it might get a chance to flow better.
i also took off the stock plugs in the oil port that runs straight from front to back of the block and ran air threw them and when i ran it from the front where the oil pump would be it was much more even on all of the mains except the first main where it was a little less.
did the same thing to the rear one and it was almost perfect because its a tad longer before it has to bend for #4 main.
ill try and keep updated on this thread with my findings... next time ill take a camera to show pictures of what im talking about. but also gonna drill out number 3 main oil port to see if the oil flow improves. little at a time just step it up till i get what im looking for.
when i was doing all this i was using a bore scope and looking threw all the oil port holes and they were all unclogged and even size so its not a matter or size or anything clogging the holes but i feel just the fact of how close number 3 main oil port is to where the oil comes in from the filter.
enlarging this might be a way to get it to capture more oil flow.
also as for the crank scrapper idea. like i said earlier with a dry sump setup it wouldnt be a concern of the crank splashing the oil anymore.
found out a reason why number 3 might not be getting enough oil..
like jason said it is in fact number 3 and if what im guessing is right then it will effect all v6 SHO engines in stock form.
i had access to a torn down 3.0 and a sheet in front of me of the stock oil flow on a v6... didnt show the engine in the picture just the flow path which was in the SHO registery mag.
anyways number 3 main is almost on top of where the oil flows in from the filter and it comes in between #3 and #4 mains closer to number 3 tho, then it needs to make a quick bend to number 3 and then right after number 3 goes right to the one head but the reason i think its less flow is because its the same size as all other oil ports and its bends as soon as it makes the first bend after coming in from the oil filter.
so what im trying to say is it has to make 2 90 degree bends before its gets a chance to straighten out again and i think its causing turbulence .when it comes up from the filter and makes the first bend towards the first 3 mains and the last main then it has to make the turn again to number 3 main, it flows right past it.
my guess is widen number 3 main port out and it might get a chance to flow better.
i also took off the stock plugs in the oil port that runs straight from front to back of the block and ran air threw them and when i ran it from the front where the oil pump would be it was much more even on all of the mains except the first main where it was a little less.
did the same thing to the rear one and it was almost perfect because its a tad longer before it has to bend for #4 main.
ill try and keep updated on this thread with my findings... next time ill take a camera to show pictures of what im talking about. but also gonna drill out number 3 main oil port to see if the oil flow improves. little at a time just step it up till i get what im looking for.
when i was doing all this i was using a bore scope and looking threw all the oil port holes and they were all unclogged and even size so its not a matter or size or anything clogging the holes but i feel just the fact of how close number 3 main oil port is to where the oil comes in from the filter.
enlarging this might be a way to get it to capture more oil flow.
also as for the crank scrapper idea. like i said earlier with a dry sump setup it wouldnt be a concern of the crank splashing the oil anymore.
egroce11
New Member
Is the #3 main the one that feeds #5 cylinder? Sorry, I just haven't got in to the oil routes in the motor yet.
I have looked at the system Jason has an I'm going to order the parts tomarrow for it. I'll probably go dry sump on another motor I'm looking at building, but has been put off until next fall and we figure out the oiling problem I'm having now, which I'm sure it is as pointed out the size of the lines going to the remote filters.
Thanks for looking at this the help and suggestions are appreciated.
Gary and zak I hope you got my pm's.
Ernie.
I have looked at the system Jason has an I'm going to order the parts tomarrow for it. I'll probably go dry sump on another motor I'm looking at building, but has been put off until next fall and we figure out the oiling problem I'm having now, which I'm sure it is as pointed out the size of the lines going to the remote filters.
Thanks for looking at this the help and suggestions are appreciated.
Gary and zak I hope you got my pm's.
Ernie.
What parts of what I have will you be going with? Have you decided on a different cooler? I REALLY like the Fluidyne ThermHX series, but I thought you you might be able to use a larger one than me for sustained runs. I think the one I have would be enough for you for the most part, but with a thermostat, you might as well have the ability to over-cool the oil.
gmail
Well-Known Member
Similar threads
