Cylinder Number 5 Again (Bearings)

[shopartsnw]

I think one of the relief valves is located in the oil pump. It has been a while, but I seem to remember a spring loaded assembly retaining by a snap ring. I always thought this was the relief valve that would bypass if the pressure was too high.

Although I cannot put my finger on it, I would think the second relief is in the oil filter itself or the oil cooler assembly. When the oil filter can't keep up, it should bypass the oil filter and run unfiltered oil to the engine.

Hope that helps. I know I am a little late to the party on this one.

Mike

 

[yamahaSHO]

Although I cannot put my finger on it, I would think the second relief is in the oil filter itself or the oil cooler assembly. When the oil filter can't keep up, it should bypass the oil filter and run unfiltered oil to the engine.

Yes, this is standard in oil filters. This will help in high load situation as well as a clogged filter.

 

[egroce11]

Thanks Mike, better late than mever. i've been tied up with Connies medical people coming over all the time that I haven't even looked at the car this week.

Ernie

 

[gmorrell]

The oil pressure relief valve is on the oil pump. It's a little stem that sticks down on the front part of the pump. Has an internal snap ring inside that secures the relief spring and piston.

Most all oil filters have relief/bypass valves that allow oil to bypass a clogged filter element, or to allow very cold oil to bypass the filter.

If you're running the stock oil cooler, there is also a spring-loaded viscosity bypass in the cooler stem which alllows cold oil to bypass the cooler, as this can create an over-pressure condition in the cooler.

Ernie, weren't you running a dual remote oil filter on 3/8" I.D. lines??? :brainfart::

Seriously, the SHO oil pump can flow near 12 gallons per minute. You can barely get 12 GPM through a 5/8" garden hose. 3/8" is sending disaster an engraved invitation.

If you're going to continue racing in the current venue, you need to start thinking differently. I believe you have two options.

1. Blueprint the block oiling passages, then dry sump the engine oiling system. Fabricate a new shallow oil pan, use several scavenge stages, use a remote oil reservoir and de-aereator, the use at least one pressurization stage to lubricate the engine. This is going to cost several thousand $ by the time you're done.

2. If you want to keep the wet sump, here are some suggestions.
- Blueprint the block oiling passages.
- Ditch the stock oil cooler, if you haven't already.
- Plumb a dual/parallel remote oil filter on nothing less than -10 lines, better yet, use -12.
- Use a front mount, flat-plate oil cooler, you can probably operate without a thermostatic bypass, as it adds restriction that you don't need.
- Every engine block remote oil takeoff I've seen needs help. Port and smooth all the passages, round over sharp edges, use O-ring style AN port fittings with internal tapers to smooth the flow.
- Same thing goes for the remote oil filter block: Port and smooth all the internal passages.
- Use good high-flow oil filters, Mobil 1 M1-301, don't use that Fram junk.

Option 2 won't cost as much as dry sumping, but figure over $500 to buy good, high-flow oiling components and all those petty red and blue fittings.

This is my plumbing nightmare. Oil cooler's in the middle, trans cooler is on the right, engine oil thermostatic bypass is below the trans cooler. This arrangement kept a 3.2L supercharged engine at 215F water and 225F oil running Willow Springs big track at 92F ambient for 20 minutes at a time. If only my clutch had worked as well as my cooling systems...
Click image to enlarge.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Thanks for joining Gary!


I don't have a remote setup anymore, however, I do have -12AN lines/fittings and the largest, highest flowing Mocal thermostatic sandwhich I could find (I was told it was designed for race boats) and large cooler (comparing to Gary's pic). I need to install a temp gauge, but my oil pressure has been much more consistant than in the past (aside form those really cold days when the thermostat is barely opening just to close again).

I don't have a pic with the large hoses, but here is the sandwhich and cooler.

I also have to agree with Gary, if you're running that small of lines, you're not only inviting trouble, but you're making it feel like home. I picked Gary's brain quite a bit when planning my setup.

 

[gmorrell]

Another thing to consider if you're building a new engine is rod bearing clearances and leak rate.

All crankshaft engines oil the main bearings first, then the oil flows to the rod bearings. Therefore, rod bearing oi is "used."

There's another physical issue at work with the oil to the rods. The rods orbit the crank axis, so the oil that travels from the mains to the rods is subject to acceleration forces. Without delving into the physics, figure that the oil pressure in the rod bearings goes up as the square of the crank RPM.

The leak rate of a bearing goes up linearily with pressure, so if pressure in the bearing goes up as a square function, the leak rate is going up in a BIG 'EFFING HURRY! The end effect here is that at high RPM, the rods can require so much oil that the flow from the pump and into the mains can't keep up. Once your engine reaches this point, it has only seconds to live.

What all this means, is that if you intend to run at high RPM, do everything you can to increase oil flow to the mains and rods, and take steps to reduce main and rod bearing leak rate. The best thing you can to do to reduce leak rate is keep bearing clearances at or below the small end of the spec.

Beyond that, run an appropriate oil weight for the bearing clearances, and don't so ANYTHING but idle the engine until the oil is up to operating temperature.

 

[SeanMc]

I can see it now "Taurus SHO breaks speed record at 173mph" . This is great info!

 

[rubydist]

Picking up on Gary's comment on reducing the oil leak rate at the mains and rod bearings, just to be clear, the larger the bearing clearance, the larger the oil leak rate. I haven't tested this to know how it changes, but I would suspect that double the clearance would leak more than twice as fast.

So, when he talks about using the right oil viscosity for the clearances, it may suggest that if your rod bearings are on the loose side of the tolerance, you may be required to run 0W40 oil if you want it to survive at high rpms.

On the oil filter topic - according to SHOtimes - the Motorcraft oil filter spec is 21.5-28.5 psi pressure drop at 10 gpm. In other words, the filter could be dropping the oil pressure by nearly 30 psi at high engine speeds! And, the relief valve may not open at all until more than 20 psi drop exists at the filter. Reportedly, the Fram filter is not tested beyond 3 gpm.... There is a good likelihood that any of the oil filters are in full bypass at 10 gpm, regardless of if they are new or plugged.

 

[egroce11]

Jason, Gary, thanks for the input. If someone has a baseball bat, please take it to my head.

Gary, yes the lines are 3/8" damn, I didn't think about the small lines, I just knew the remote system was the problem. How are you getting the engine oil to the oil cooler, what oil pressure are you running at with your system. My bearing clearance was 2 thousands and the oil lines were blue printed, (opened up) and all this time my brain shut down on lines even after turning down a system Jason was using as I thought that at the higher rpm I run that it would starve my system. Then like an idiot I went with what I went with.

Jason I know we talked before about oiling this motor, what is your oil pressure running at? What parts are you using and where did you get them?

I have looked at a dry sump system but haven't found the one I would use.

I'm going to go with a system like one of yours, at this time I can't afford to go with the dry sump. A list of parts and suppliers would be appreciated from both of you.

Gary and Jason, Thanks for giving me something to look at, I've had one big BRAIN FART on this one.

It's funny, I can build a motor that runs like this one and then go brain dead on the oiling system.

Thanks everyone including Gary and Jason, Any more thoughts would be appreciated.

Yes Sean, In my minds eye has always been 173.162 mph.

This is really great info on this thread. Again thanks all.
I've got about 2 months to get this ready to race again.

Ernie.

 

[NotSoSlowSHO]

Ernie,

I had a loose oil pump floating around here somewhere but have not been able to locate it. If I don't find it by Sunday afternoon, I will flip over one of these blocks that still has the pump on it and take some pics.

Tom

Somebody looking for oil pump pics??

Pretty standard gear pump, with an oil pressure relief valve :wave:

3rd photo shows the valve pretty well, left side of the pump, facing down.

 

[gmail]

the most expensive thing about a dry sump setup is the pump. you really dont need a special oil pan because most dry sump setups are a min of 7 quarts and when you have many lines in the pan sucking the oil out of the system chances are your never gonna be without oil.
almost all dry sump setups never really have oil in the pans anyways.

theres a lot of benefits to dry sump.. make more power threw a few things, no oil in the pan to slosh around and slow the crank down, more vaccum in the PCV so the rings seal much better then they would in wet sump.

just do a little research on the matter you will find out its not hard to setup and it can be done for a reasonable price.. dont expect to pay a few thousand for a setup unless your going all high roller.

remember tho also the dry sump pumps are far better ... they pump much more volume of oil then the stock setup could also. less chances of air getting mixed in with the oil making it frothy and well not gonna work as well when its all frothy.

only real expenses are gonna be the pump, hardware like lines and oil containers, brackets etc.

in all honesty like i said you really dont need a custom pan.

 

[yamahaSHO]

Jason I know we talked before about oiling this motor, what is your oil pressure running at? What parts are you using and where did you get them?

It's been awhile since I've driven the car, but from what I remember, I am seeing about 40 PSI at 2,000 RPM and 55 - 60 PSI at 3,000 RPM for semi-aggressive driving. In the past, I would see 18 PSI at 2,000 RPM and since it's been awhie, I can't remember exactly on anything else. Next time I drive it, it will be a refesher. My oil is a tad thicker too, but I've also added quite a bit of hose and a cooler which would show a drop (as opposed to not having that stuff installed)

I remember taking a cruise in NE running the car pretty hard at the end of summer and being constantly excited that my oil pressure wasn't dropping every time I rode it out to the top of 3rd gear.

For the t-stat sandwhich, I am using the Mocal SP1T-HF (bottom) found here. It will require using their fittings as the aren't NPT and don't chock the size down. I was able to barely fit some -12AN fittings in there.

The cooler I am using is a Fluidyne DB-30416 found here. The say they are very efficient with cooling with minimal pressure drop.

 

[gmail]

i see the same psi at those rpms that you are jason with the single filter oil relocator.

i have heard in the past tho the reground cams expect to see a drop in oil pressure at idle but then again with stage 2 cams most guys run the idle up a bit to make up for the choppy idle which in return bumps pressure up some.

its amazing how much bumping the idle from stock to about 1200 can make the oil pressure go up. about 20 psi of oil compaired to 12.5 is about what i see

 

[NotSoSlowSHO]

Im thinking that oil PSI is not what needs to be addressed here.

Its volume.

Especially when you are getting as "picky" as debating filter relocation and bypass kits by how well they flow.

I mean, if you take out a restrictive filter assembly in favor of a better flowing one, you will see a PSI DROP, correct? And even though your PSI dropped, you will see better circulation, because volume has increased.

 

[yamahaSHO]

i see the same psi at those rpms that you are jason with the single filter oil relocator.

Run HARD for about 10 minutes (no stop lights) and check that again.

i have heard in the past tho the reground cams expect to see a drop in oil pressure at idle but then again with stage 2 cams most guys run the idle up a bit to make up for the choppy idle which in return bumps pressure up some.

If you lose pressure with reground cams, you got a worn set. Regrinds don't address the bearing journals.

 

[gmail]

just heard the regrind cam things threw the grapevine is all not threw experience.


im not saying you got a bad setup or anything jason just saying everytime i check my gauge when the car is warmed up all i see if those numbers.

also i got a 80k mile 3.2 that ive striped down to block, cleaned and rebuilt everything.

 

[yamahaSHO]

I'm comparing to my old numbers. I see better pressure (as that's all I can currently monitor) and I'm adding resistance while still getting better pressure.

 

[38SHO]

Ernie, this is a pdf file from Ford about the SHO engine

http://www.alfitz.com/SHO_Engine_Book.pdf

in that pdf page 35 begins the lubrication section........

 

[Storm-Chaser]

. . . . nothing to see here, . . . move along now . . . .

 

[38SHO]

oh ok

my bad