Intermittent starting issues.

[Holiday]

My SHO has a new battery and alternator, I believe new spark plugs as well from previous owner. It has for some time started up perfectly within a second of turning on the ignition. Recently it has been having random starting issues. I can hear the starter going but the car doesn't fire up. If I wait 10-20 seconds and try again it usually starts again normally. If I rule out the battery and spark plugs I'm wondering if the fact my car has an immobilizer that perhaps the immobilizer is not fully disengaged and so not enough power to properly start the car. Though perhaps the fact I can hear the starter going strong means that's not the issue. Potentially it could be a sign the fuel pump is going though the car seems to run fine, idles fine. Could be the MAF. The only recent change to the car engine-wise is I added a K&N filter.

Anyways I thought I'd ask the community here as to sourcing the issue before I pay for a mechanic to look at the car.

 

[luigisho]

If you turn the key to just before engaging the starter you should hear the fuel pump prime every time. If not then relay or pump issue. The starter is a 2 piece sort of. The solenoid is integrated with the starter (which is normal for modern cars but the SHO switched from seperate to single unit). Could be an issue with either. You can get a good battery reading and track it a little. Replacement electrical parts can be finnicky in quality. Especially alternator and starter rebuild quality. Replacement parts are usually pretty cheap and consistency is less than most replacement parts.

 

[zoomlater]

Alternator? Do you mean you can hear your starter turning over, but the engine not starting? Since it starts the second time, then I would think you have enough voltage getting to the starter. Maybe your cam sensor is going out as that tells the engine when to fire at the right time. Can you pull codes to see if there are any stored codes.

 

[Holiday]

I'm not sure how to pull codes from the car. It's OBD 1 right? I have no cels currently. Yeah, not alternator, i meant starter. Mostly it starts immediately. Once in awhile it limp starts (fires up but not strongly), and once in awhile the starter just goes but nothing happens. I'll take the suggestions and see if i can source the culprit.

 

[zoomlater]

If you have a Gen 1, you will have two digit codes, if you have a Gen 2, then you will have three digit codes
Codes can be stored without a check engine light, best to check to see if any are stored

SHO Phoenix Project

 

[luigisho]

I'm not sure how to pull codes from the car. It's OBD 1 right? I have no cels currently. Yeah, not alternator, i meant starter. Mostly it starts immediately. Once in awhile it limp starts (fires up but not strongly), and once in awhile the starter just goes but nothing happens. I'll take the suggestions and see if i can source the culprit.

OBD 1. Check out that link to find where to locate the diagnostic plugs and you can try this

https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3145-Ford-Digital-Reader/dp/B000EW0KHW/ref=sr_1_43?crid=3C7E5W371AVY9&keywords=innova+5610&qid=1648228669&sprefix=innova%2Caps%2C201&sr=8-43&tag=shoforum-20

might make reading codes easier. I think they sell them in parts stores like Autozone for same price

 

[Holiday]

OBD 1. Check out that link to find where to locate the diagnostic plugs and you can try this

https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3145-Ford-Digital-Reader/dp/B000EW0KHW/ref=sr_1_43?crid=3C7E5W371AVY9&keywords=innova+5610&qid=1648228669&sprefix=innova%2Caps%2C201&sr=8-43&tag=shoforum-20

might make reading codes easier. I think they sell them in parts stores like Autozone for same price

Thanks!

 

[SHOrod]

A weak fuel pump can cause starting issues but still allow the car to run fine once started. You might want to try priming the fuel pump to see if it starts more reliably. If so, that would point to a fuel pressure issue (pump or fuel filter). To prime the fuel pump, turn the key to the Run position (not start) as mentioned in post #2 above. Wait about 2 seconds, then turn the key off and leave it off for about 5 seconds. Then turn it to Run again, wait 2ish seconds, off for 5, then try to start the engine. If it starts reliably this way, then it's probably a fuel issue.

If you have a fuel pressure tester with the Ford adapter, you can also check the fuel pressure at the rail to find out of the KOEO and KOER pressures are within specification. I don't have the service manual in front of me to tell you what spec is, but since you don't mention testing for fuel pressure, I'm going to guess you don't have a fuel pressure tester.

-Rod

 

[BaySHO Performance]

Very few codes will cause the CEL to come on. If the starting problem happens on a hot engine, they can be difficult to start because of vapor lock in the fuel rails. Try giving it some gas while attempting to start.
To pull codes:

EEC Self Test Procedure - V6SHO

Use a prescribed paper clip, or:

https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3145-Ford-Digital-Reader/dp/B000EW0KHW/ref=rvi_1/137-5954805-5352719?pd_rd_w=IVHG6&pf_rd_p=f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_r=D4XAFFPSF3J90KEYRKW9&pd_rd_r=e5e9f199-b435-4da2-bd9d-73d550d741d8&pd_rd_wg=VMu4M&pd_rd_i=B000EW0KHW&psc=1

 

[Holiday]

I followed the instructions, using a paper clip to make the connections mentioned and then turn the ignition to start. No flashing lights at all so either no codes or I didn't do the required connection correctly. Recently I started the car and noticed it was idling weakly at around 700 RPM for a bit before settling at normal idle around 900-1000 RPMs. Next attempt start about and hour and a half later it wouldn't turn over at all after trying 4-5 times. I then waited 30 seconds and tried again and it fired up. As I was on an incline when attempting start I wonder if that exacerbated the problem. At any rate I'm going to have a mechanic look at it.

 

[luigisho]

You can get that code reader Baysho has listed in the link above. You can get them from amazon or local parts stores may carry them. You will need to be able to pull codes if you keep this car. The age and other factors indicate that things will go wrong. You need to be able to go through the initial learning curve unless you have plenty of disposable income. Most of us became good or ok with a wrench by necessity.

 

[Holiday]

You can get that code reader Baysho has listed in the link above. You can get them from amazon or local parts stores may carry them. You will need to be able to pull codes if you keep this car. The age and other factors indicate that things will go wrong. You need to be able to go through the initial learning curve unless you have plenty of disposable income. Most of us became good or ok with a wrench by necessity.

Yeah, makes sense. I'll get the reader.

 

[luigisho]

Cars this old, and American cars made in that era require alot more upkeep. Even back in the 90's when I bought my first one it was a maintenance pig. I had to learn everything about cars (except for super simple stuff) from scratch. It was frustrating, time consuming and expensive. It was also much cheaper than paying someone else to do it. I could never have afforded to pay for each area that needed work. We've all been there. It's just that you are there now. We can help but we are not there to put actual eyes and hands on the car so more difficult.

 

[NoSlo]

You don't need a code reader at all, that's just wasted money. You only need to put a jumper between the correct two pins on the service connector. You can make a good jumper with male crimp spade connectors and a piece of wire.

Inactive | HelioHost

See that the check engine light is not burned out when you turn the key to the on position and all the lights come on. An inability to get any codes at all when following correct procedures has been previous been found to be a ECU problem.

The symptom of occasional starting quickly, and occasional turning and turning the starter with no startup is typical of a failing cam position sensor. With no cam sensor input, the computer has to guess the timing and only gets it right half the time. Watch the tachometer when cranking or once the engine is running to see if it ever falters.

This car also has to breathe air in order to start. You don't have to push down the gas pedal, because of the idle air control valve - the computer opens a valve to control the idle air flow. This can get sticky, not opening and needing you to indeed use the pedal, or causing the engine to idle low or stumble.

 

[Holiday]

Thanks for the responses. I managed to pull the codes:

116 - Engine Coolant (ECT) sensor out of range - ECT
114 - IAT sensor out of range - IAT

So am I looking at changing the ECT sensor and IAT sensor or are there things I should check first? Is the IAT sensor part of the MAF?

 

[NoSlo]

Codes 114 and 116 are both for temperature measurements. They will definitely throw a fault if the temperature is below 10C, so the car does have to be warmed up, and the key-on-engine-off test performed with the engine bay warmed. The IAT is the air temperature sensor in the air filter box.

You can then clear the stored engine codes by disconnecting the jumper while the codes are being read out. Then turn off the ignition, reconnect the jumper, and attempt KOEO again, which first tests the sensors "live" and gives any codes, and then secondly reports 111 if there are no stored codes.

It is possible for one of the sensors or the harness to be failed and to cause a no-start condition (from poor engine management, or from shorting out the reference voltage). If you have a volt-meter, you can disconnect either sensor, and measure its resistance, which should be 58k ohms at 10C, increasing to 37k at 20C and 24k at 30C. With good-measuring sensors, a warmed engine when testing, and these codes coming back, both an intermittent sensor or intermittent wire harness problem are possible.

 

[Holiday]

Codes 114 and 116 are both for temperature measurements. They will definitely throw a fault if the temperature is below 10C, so the car does have to be warmed up, and the key-on-engine-off test performed with the engine bay warmed. The IAT is the air temperature sensor in the air filter box.

You can then clear the stored engine codes by disconnecting the jumper while the codes are being read out. Then turn off the ignition, reconnect the jumper, and attempt KOEO again, which first tests the sensors "live" and gives any codes, and then secondly reports 111 if there are no stored codes.

It is possible for one of the sensors or the harness to be failed and to cause a no-start condition (from poor engine management, or from shorting out the reference voltage). If you have a volt-meter, you can disconnect either sensor, and measure its resistance, which should be 58k ohms at 10C, increasing to 37k at 20C and 24k at 30C. With good-measuring sensors, a warmed engine when testing, and these codes coming back, both an intermittent sensor or intermittent wire harness problem are possible.

Thanks. I disconnected the battery for 10 min. Then I drove the car around the block to warm it up. Checked for codes again and now it's 111, so no faults. Car starts and runs fine at the moment but that it is the case 85-90% of the time until it mysteriously begins to have starting issues.

 

[Holiday]

Still having intermittent problems. Started up fine today but as I was about to leave the parking lot and onto the street it stalled at the stop and wouldn't start. Luckily a mechanic stopped by and suggested the engine was flooded. So I primed and then started with the foot on the gas pedal and it fired up. I have no idea how it flooded. I just clutched in at the stop sign and it died.

 

[zoomlater]

pull your codes and see if any new codes were saved

 

[Holiday]

pull your codes and see if any new codes were saved

I'll pull the codes again today.