Calling all Gen 3 subframe into Gen 1/2 guys?

[ManySHOs]

I was under the impression that there wasn't much of an overall weight savings but that this was more of a handling upgrade. I wonder if it'll work better with coilovers vs the older subframe. (somewhat more compliance, better road feel, less crashing over bumps, etc)

Ian

 

[ManySHOs]

As work progresses...

First pic is the Gen 3 rack on the subframe/powertrain removed from the car, just to establish whether the rack hose bracket/heatshield fits, etc. since the basic powertrain-to-rack location shouldn't change on the new subframe:

http://www.milleredp.com/gallery/v/jem/motion/SHO/subframe/DSCN3792.JPG

It all looks very OEM and everything fits nicely, PSPS fits right in the Gen 3 pressure hose fitting, pressure hose points right off toward the Gen 1 power steering pump. It really does look like the pressure hose is just a matter of cutting the Gen 3 hose to the right length and putting the Gen 1 pump-end hardline section on. We'll see how the Gen 1 pump does...

Next pics are the Gen 3 combo - subframe, rack, pressure hose, hose bracket/heatshield, inner/outer rack-to-firewall boot, and intermediate shaft - bolted up to the car:

http://www.milleredp.com/gallery/v/jem/motion/SHO/subframe/DSCN3796.JPG
http://www.milleredp.com/gallery/v/jem/motion/SHO/subframe/DSCN3800.JPG
http://www.milleredp.com/gallery/v/jem/motion/SHO/subframe/DSCN3802.JPG

Fits like it was made for the car, pretty much a perfect OEM fit. Everything clears everywhere, everything works nicely. As I might have noted before, the upper and lower steering-shaft U-joints actually 'clock' better with the Gen 3 setup than the stock Gen 1 intermediate shaft. Not sure why Ford did it 'wrong' in the earlier cars.

Thanks for the pictures! Do you know if the gen3 PS pump will fit on the gen1/2 mounting bracket and line up properly with the belt system? I don't think I've ever seen one so I can't begin to guess..

Ian

 

[JEM]

I've heard just the knuckles take off about 20lbs, and the subframe isn't much different than the g1/g2. It's the geometry, and the steering rack that make it all worth it.

I would not be surprised if the subframe were slightly heavier, since the front crossmember is fatter in section and the rear crossmember is tubular as opposed to the earlier car's U-shaped stamping.

The difference in knuckles isn't that much, certainly not like 20lb. The total weight loss per suspension wheel-set is IIRC on the order of 2lb. There's rumor that later Tauri ('03-ish?) have aluminum LCAs which might take off another 3lb. Most of the heaviest sprung or partly-sprung items (struts, axles, rotors, calipers) don't change.

 

[SHOZ123]

front



rear

 

[JEM]

Thanks for the pictures! Do you know if the gen3 PS pump will fit on the gen1/2 mounting bracket and line up properly with the belt system? I don't think I've ever seen one so I can't begin to guess..

My guess is that it will not, but I do not have one in hand to compare. I may try to lay hands on one at some point.

 

[SeanMc]

I would not be surprised if the subframe were slightly heavier, since the front crossmember is fatter in section and the rear crossmember is tubular as opposed to the earlier car's U-shaped stamping.

The difference in knuckles isn't that much, certainly not like 20lb. The total weight loss per suspension wheel-set is IIRC on the order of 2lb. There's rumor that later Tauri ('03-ish?) have aluminum LCAs which might take off another 3lb. Most of the heaviest sprung or partly-sprung items (struts, axles, rotors, calipers) don't change.

I was saying 20lbs total, not just for the knuckles themselves. This again is what I heard, and not scripture .

 

[JEM]

front

Was just eyeballing my Gen 1 pump and that might not be too hard to do. Probably need a custom pulley. Got any dimensions off that thing? Who was the mfr (also ZF, or...?)

 

[ManySHOs]

Was just eyeballing my Gen 1 pump and that might not be too hard to do. Probably need a custom pulley. Got any dimensions off that thing? Who was the mfr (also ZF, or...?)

Hmmm, both have 3 bolt mounting. Paul, is the shaft on that pump splined for the pulley?

I wouldn't be surprised if that bolts right up (although the offset may not be correct). Is there a difference between gen3 pumps or are all duratech PS pumps the same?

(yeah, I guess I could look this up on autozone or rockauto..)

Ian

 

[SHOZ123]

Yes the splines are for the pulley.

The manufacturer is ZUA.

What kind of dimensions do you want?

BTW the Gen 3 hub with bearing and ball joint weighs 13 lbs. And as far as I know there are no Gen 4 aluminum control arms.

 

[JEM]

What kind of dimensions do you want?

Center-to-center on the front mounting holes (just across the two 180-degree opposed top holes is good enough), thickness of the pump from the face of the front mounting hole bosses to the face of the rear hole boss, front mounting hole face to the end of the shaft.

 

[SHOZ123]

C-C ~2.1"

180* opposed is ~2.8" across

Top two bosses are 1.4" and the bottom, center one is 2.65" which is to the back plane of the pump.

The GEn 3 uses a bracket that the pump is mounted to then the braket is mounted to the heads FWIW.

 

[JEM]

C-C ~2.1"

180* opposed is ~2.8" across

Top two bosses are 1.4" and the bottom, center one is 2.65" which is to the back plane of the pump.

The Gen 1 pump is 80mm (3.15in) center-to-center across the top two front mounting holes, and 57.3mm (2.26in) thick from the front face (at the mounting holes) to the rear face (at the mounting hole.)

When you say 'center one is 2.65in' do you mean that's the thickness of the pump?

If so, the Gen 3 pump is no wider, a little squarer in shape, and about .30in thicker than the Gen 1 pump. Depending on the inlet/outlet fitting positions and the shaft/pulley work involved it might fit in a Gen 1 bracket with some minor machine work to the bracket (mill the back of the bracket off and weld on a steel plate spaced out an extra 0.3in, and maybe cut some slots in the lower corners of the bracket to clear the squarer Gen 3 pump body.)

 

[SHO Dude]

The output port on the Gen III pump is backwards and comes out on the wrong side. The outout port on the Gen I/II pump is on the opposite side.

I don't think there's enough room to route the pressure line behind or below the pump.

 

[SHOZ123]

The Gen 1 pump is 80mm (3.15in) center-to-center across the top two front mounting holes, and 57.3mm (2.26in) thick from the front face (at the mounting holes) to the rear face (at the mounting hole.)

When you say 'center one is 2.65in' do you mean that's the thickness of the pump?

If so, the Gen 3 pump is no wider, a little squarer in shape, and about .30in thicker than the Gen 1 pump. Depending on the inlet/outlet fitting positions and the shaft/pulley work involved it might fit in a Gen 1 bracket with some minor machine work to the bracket (mill the back of the bracket off and weld on a steel plate spaced out an extra 0.3in, and maybe cut some slots in the lower corners of the bracket to clear the squarer Gen 3 pump body.)[/QUOTE

Total thickness of the pump from back to the end of the threaded pully mount is ~4.35"

From the pump back to the nose on the pump body which holds the front bearing is ~3.4"

Width is ~3.5"

Width at the top is ~4.0" including the output banjo fitting, ~3.5" not including the banjo fitting.

Height is ~3.65"

 

[JEM]

The output port on the Gen III pump is backwards and comes out on the wrong side. The outout port on the Gen I/II pump is on the opposite side.

Yeah, absent the possibility of mounting it upside down or some such, and some concrete indication that the Gen 1 pump isn't sufficient, it's probably not worth the effort to pursue. Though one wonders whether the housing could be drilled through to the opposite side, tapped for a fitting, and the existing port plugged...

Anybody out there got a new or good-condition firewall insulator pad? After the fresh rattle-can job on the engine compartment, I really can't bear to just stick the old shaggy one back on there.

 

[SHOZ123]

No way are you drilling and remounting the in/out ports. The big banjo fitting output has some sort of metering setup in it. The fitting though can be modified as I tapped mine for 3/8" NPT.

It's obvious you can use the Gen 1/2 pump (which is speced the same as the GEN 3 Duratec) due to the fact of successful transplants. But is the pump up to the flow needs of an active variable ZF ps rack?

 

[JEM]

It's obvious you can use the Gen 1/2 pump (which is speced the same as the GEN 3 Duratec) due to the fact of successful transplants. But is the pump up to the flow needs of an active variable ZF ps rack?

We'll find out...

 

[daveb673]

I'm interested to see how the project turns out...

 

[JEM]

I'm interested to see how the project turns out...

Yesterday was consumed with wiring, there's an alarm and the SARC box that now all piggyback onto the locus of the keyless-entry box. Today if I can sneak a couple hours in/around family stuff I'll hook up the last couple of rear-compartment wires (trunk light switch and parking lights for the alarm) and run the harness through the firewall.

Picked up another SARC box off eBay for $0.99 + shipping, of course you then need a Gen 3 main-body harness just to get the connectors...

 

[DeaconBlue]

I'm interested to see how the project turns out...

Not to worry, it will turn out just fine. JEM is doing way more reach than I did and is learning from some of my mistakes as well. Mine has been running for a few months now. Not sure of the count right now of the Gen III SF conversion, but as far as I know, mine was one of the first street cars, the other were track only cars.

Unfortunately, I blew my second high pressure PS hose the other day. I finally broke down and bought a new Gen I/II hose and a new Gen III hose to get the correct factory hard line ends with factory fittings for the pump and rack. Then I took them to the local Parker Hannifin hose store and they made me up a quality HP supply hose using those correct ends with their 471TC hose and Series 43 “field repair” fittings. Now I just need to install the new hose and button her back up again this weekend. Got to have her running for the convention.

BTW, JEM should have his big bore Honda bearing stroker engine up and running in that car as well. Because I just have one project car, I can get my similar projects on the street a bit quicker, but JEM does his absolutely correct the first time, every time