Calling all Gen 3 subframe into Gen 1/2 guys?

[ilSHOu]

thanks for the pics ishodu!

 

[ManySHOs]

FWIW, I have a spare gen1 and gen3 rack in my garage. When I did my engine swap, I considered installing the gen3 rack but ended up using my reman ford VAPs rack that was already in there. I tried mounting the gen3 rack to my spare subframe and it didn't sit properly on the frame. I'm sure it could be made to work but there were some issues with mine that I didn't bother to figure out.

I just ordered used gen3 knuckles with hubs from eBay. I'm debating whether or not I should get the control arms too or just find a boneyard to pull a subframe w/ control arms from. I'll use the trans mount from my old subframe; I just need a SARC box, associated wiring, ABS sensors, and PS steering lines with adapters. Oh yeah, I'll also need to figure out what I'm doing with brakes as the wilwoods aren't going to fit "as-is".

JEM-you're planning on using the gen1 lines with adapters on them correct? Can you elaborate on what size fittings are needed and any special angles?

thanks
Ian

 

[JEM]

I just ordered used gen3 knuckles with hubs from eBay. I'm debating whether or not I should get the control arms too or just find a boneyard to pull a subframe w/ control arms from.

The rear bushings in the Gen 3 arms seem to be very tough stuff. The front bushings are a directional bushing similar to those used in a lot of Euro cars, based on the markings on 'em I'm betting they come from a Euro OE supplier (they're similar in design to, but 2/3 the size of, the ones I just changed in the front suspension rear arms in my '00 M5.) In my non-SHO experience they tend to degrade over time but if you can find a used set with < 60K miles on them you should be okay.

Ford doesn't sell the bushings separately anymore, they'll sell you a whole new arm for $120 or so, but I think DeaconBlue either found a leftover set or an aftermarket supplier - they're a typical hydraulic-press fit in the arm. The Gen 3s put the balljoint in the knuckle, not in the arm.

I'll use the trans mount from my old subframe; I just need a SARC box, associated wiring, ABS sensors, and PS steering lines with adapters. Oh yeah, I'll also need to figure out what I'm doing with brakes as the wilwoods aren't going to fit "as-is".

JEM-you're planning on using the gen1 lines with adapters on them correct? Can you elaborate on what size fittings are needed and any special angles?

You'll want a Gen 3 power-steering return line, it runs forward along the inside of the left-hand subframe rail to whatever you run as a cooler. The routing may need some adjustment as it's gonna get tight around the transmission housing and Paul Nimz suggests that it hangs too low; I haven't finalized what I'm going to do there.

I'll know somewhat more on the pressure line soon, maybe tonight. I suspect most folks who've done the conversion thus far have gotten too clever at the rack end, and we'll see if using the Gen 3 firewall boot and pressure-hose mounting bracket simplify reuse of the stock Gen 3 rack end, but I'm still waiting for some bits to get here and I'm going to be out of town part of this coming week.

If so, then it's just cutting the pump hard-line end off a Gen 1 hose, the rack hard-line end off a Gen 3 hose, figuring how they 'clock' relative to one another once installed, then trotting down to the local hydraulic shop and having 'em put two feet of hose in between.

 

[SHOZ123]

Here is the return line, where it sits too low and how to fix it.

 

[ManySHOs]

I'll know somewhat more on the pressure line soon, maybe tonight. I suspect most folks who've done the conversion thus far have gotten too clever at the rack end, and we'll see if using the Gen 3 firewall boot and pressure-hose mounting bracket simplify reuse of the stock Gen 3 rack end, but I'm still waiting for some bits to get here and I'm going to be out of town part of this coming week.

If so, then it's just cutting the pump hard-line end off a Gen 1 hose, the rack hard-line end off a Gen 3 hose, figuring how they 'clock' relative to one another once installed, then trotting down to the local hydraulic shop and having 'em put two feet of hose in between.

Thanks John- Have you been taking pictures of this setup?

I have some hardlines in a box that I received with my ZF rack from Ray (midnight auto). I've been sitting on this rack for a few years now. The next time I'm home and I get a chance, I'll have to sort through what I have.

If/as I learn more, I'll post so we can all learn from this. I'd love to know what the differences are between the gen3 subframes and whether or not all of the control arms and knuckles are interchangeable (96-99). Does anyone know about the gen4 parts? Will they interchange with the 96-99 stuff and are they any better?

In retrospect, it was probably pretty stupid for me to get those knuckles on eBay. I think I'll have to stop at a local boneyard to pull a gen3 subframe complete with everything I'll need...at least I have a girlfriend willing to help (and hopefully it'll fit in the back of her Escape!)

Ian

 

[SHOZ123]

The GEN 3 control arms changed in '98. They went to a bigger bolt for the front bushing. The GEN 4 control arms are the same as the GEN 3 >'98 and not aluminum. The GEN 4 knuckles are different with the tie rod end position a bit different IIRC.

 

[ManySHOs]

Ok, is this correct?

96-99 knuckles are all the same and interchangeable

96 & 97 control arms are the same (are they aluminum too?) and can only be used on 96 & 97 subframes?

98 & 99 control arms are the same and can only be used on 98 & 99 subframes? - per Paul, they use a larger front bushing bolt

2000+ control arms are the same as the 98 & 99 arms but are steel?

2000+ knuckles are different (tie rod positioning - per Paul)

Which subframes (year) are people using for this conversion and does anyone know the differences between the years?

thanks
Ian

 

[JEM]

96-99 knuckles are all the same and interchangeable

I believe so.

96 & 97 control arms are the same (are they aluminum too?) and can only be used on 96 & 97 subframes?

98 & 99 control arms are the same and can only be used on 98 & 99 subframes? - per Paul, they use a larger front bushing bolt

The front pivot bolt (which is vertical, BTW) went from 12mm to 14mm sometime in the '98 model year. The subframe design also changed slightly, some feel the earlier subframe is easier to modify but I don't necessarily agree.

The control arms are all steel, and IIRC Ford lists only one replacement arm for all those applications - maybe they're expecting you to drill the subframe for the 14mm bolt?

2000+ control arms are the same as the 98 & 99 arms but are steel?

2000+ knuckles are different (tie rod positioning - per Paul)

Don't know anything about the 2000+ pieces.

Which subframes (year) are people using for this conversion and does anyone know the differences between the years?

Mine's a late '98 Sable piece.

 

[SeanMc]

I'm really considering this, but I'd like to find out how they are for the gen2 atx. Anyone have any info?

 

[SHOZ123]

Another oddity is the ball joint mount. My replacement OEM ones from 2001 did not have snap rings to retain them unlike the latter year ones.

 

[SolidState]

really? that is really weird. That C-clip is a major safety feature. In providing quality services to a major Ford OEM suspension supplier, a missing C-clip is a major major issue....

 

[ManySHOs]

Another oddity is the ball joint mount. My replacement OEM ones from 2001 did not have snap rings to retain them unlike the latter year ones.

Paul

Are you referring to replacement arms that you purchased in 2001 or are you using 2001 model year arms?

Is there a retaining nut inside the subframe rail for the vertical bolt that holds the control arms in or does this bolt pass through the entire the subframe?

Thanks!
Ian

 

[SHOZ123]

really? that is really weird. That C-clip is a major safety feature. In providing quality services to a major Ford OEM suspension supplier, a missing C-clip is a major major issue....

I mean it was a press fit only there is no provision for a C clip that I can see. This is the original knuckles and the OEM Ford ones I replaced them with back in 2001 or so. The latest set I just put on have the C clips.

Is there a retaining nut inside the subframe rail for the vertical bolt that holds the control arms in or does this bolt pass through the entire the subframe?

Thanks!
Ian

No it is a bolt and nut that goes all the way through.

 

[JEM]

As work progresses...

First pic is the Gen 3 rack on the subframe/powertrain removed from the car, just to establish whether the rack hose bracket/heatshield fits, etc. since the basic powertrain-to-rack location shouldn't change on the new subframe:

http://www.milleredp.com/gallery/v/jem/motion/SHO/subframe/DSCN3792.JPG

It all looks very OEM and everything fits nicely, PSPS fits right in the Gen 3 pressure hose fitting, pressure hose points right off toward the Gen 1 power steering pump. It really does look like the pressure hose is just a matter of cutting the Gen 3 hose to the right length and putting the Gen 1 pump-end hardline section on. We'll see how the Gen 1 pump does...

Next pics are the Gen 3 combo - subframe, rack, pressure hose, hose bracket/heatshield, inner/outer rack-to-firewall boot, and intermediate shaft - bolted up to the car:

http://www.milleredp.com/gallery/v/jem/motion/SHO/subframe/DSCN3796.JPG
http://www.milleredp.com/gallery/v/jem/motion/SHO/subframe/DSCN3800.JPG
http://www.milleredp.com/gallery/v/jem/motion/SHO/subframe/DSCN3802.JPG

Fits like it was made for the car, pretty much a perfect OEM fit. Everything clears everywhere, everything works nicely. As I might have noted before, the upper and lower steering-shaft U-joints actually 'clock' better with the Gen 3 setup than the stock Gen 1 intermediate shaft. Not sure why Ford did it 'wrong' in the earlier cars.

 

[SHOZ123]

Don't forget the split collars on the sway bar.

 

[JEM]

Don't forget the split collars on the sway bar.

I've got a set on order from McMaster-Carr, though I'm not sure yet whether I'm running a Gen 1 bar or a Gen 3 bar.

 

[Geek SHO]

Here's a little video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=546445394550448389&q=v8+sho

That video makes me want to take a year off from real-life and build a V8 MTX. Who cares if it's only 15 more hp, it sounds like 100.

 

[JEM]

That video makes me want to take a year off from real-life and build a V8 MTX. Who cares if it's only 15 more hp, it sounds like 100.

Before doing anything like that I'd make sure of the smog issues.

Maybe once 650 or so of my thousand current projects are out of the way I'll pick up a V8 block and see what happens when you bore it out far enough to sleeve it for 4.0 or 4.4L.

I don't think the Volvo V8 block will fit with the Gen 3 front dress, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Volvo head gaskets will work on the Gen 3 block.

3.4L V8/2.5L V6: 82.4mm bore
3.0L V6/6.0L Aston V12: 89mm bore (+6.6mm)
4.4L Volvo V8: 94mm bore (+11.6mm!!!)

All on the same bore spacing.

 

[adidas_kn]

Man this has me wondering. How much weight is dropped by going from the standard GEN1/2 subframe/steering rack to the nicer GEN3 Subframe/Rack combo? The handling benefits alone make it seem worth it. Also could this be done to an 89' SHO? Trying to drop as much weight as possible without stripping the car out. Trying to make an all around performer/Daily Driver out of my newly aquired white 3.3L 89'.

 

[SeanMc]

I've heard just the knuckles take off about 20lbs, and the subframe isn't much different than the g1/g2. It's the geometry, and the steering rack that make it all worth it. I wish there was more info on the g3 subframe into an atx. I really want to do this.