Calling all Gen 3 subframe into Gen 1/2 guys?

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ilSHOu

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Hey, I have some questions for anyone who has done this modification. I am considering installing a Gen 3 subframe into my 91. I am looking for any guidance or advice you can give me on this. Am I going to be best off looking for a gen 3 sho subframe with a rack and all suspension components or should I just look at getting a bare slo subframe? What gen 3 suspenion and steering parts are the same? Also what kind of fitment issues are you having, in my extensive searching I read that with the gen 1's you have clearance issues in the front? Any and all advice welcome. Also was it worth it?

Thanks, Seth
 

ilSHOu

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Also what are you guys doing for springs and struts on your setups as there really isn't anything available for the gen 3 except eibachs which aren't even suppose to handle the weight of the gen 3 but I don't see this being a problem since it is going in a gen 1.
 

K-Dawg

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Use the Gen 1/2 struts and springs. Use the Gen 3 subframe, control arms, and knuckles. Most people use the Gen3 rack and tierod ends. I'm unsure if the Gen 1/2 rack will fit. I think you also have to use the Gen 3 sway bar endlinks, but I'm not sure on that either.
 

naval-avi8or

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Use the Gen 1/2 struts and springs. Use the Gen 3 subframe, control arms, and knuckles. Most people use the Gen3 rack and tierod ends. I'm unsure if the Gen 1/2 rack will fit. I think you also have to use the Gen 3 sway bar endlinks, but I'm not sure on that either.

Racks are interchangable but use the GEN 3 zf rack as it is way more superior than the GEN 1/2 rack. I can't offer any information in regards to mods required to mount the motor since I swapped everthing over into my GEN 2. The subframe itself is an even swap and you will need to keep your shocks and springs as the GEN 3's will lower the car to much and result in fender rub on rough/bumpie roads and require you to swap out front mounts.
 

JEM

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Hey, I have some questions for anyone who has done this modification. I am considering installing a Gen 3 subframe into my 91. I am looking for any guidance or advice you can give me on this.

My subframe isn't in the car yet so filter what I say appropriately. The car's coming apart for the swap now.

You have significant work to do on the subframe no matter whether you start with a SHO or SLO/Sable subframe; my opinion is that the SLO subframe is a lot easier to get and no harder to work with. I've heard that there was a design change on the Gen 3 subframes in '98 so some techniques may differ, mine is a late '98 Sable subframe.

1) You've got to cut off the Gen 3 trans mount and weld on a mount cut from a Gen 1/2 subframe, and you need to make a jig to get it properly located. It overhangs the rail so you need to do something to support it on the outside of the subframe rail.

2) You need to make a pocket in the subframe rail below the mount for MTX clearance; I've seen one that just had a hole cut in the rail but that strikes me as weakening the rail too much. I made up a pocket from a section of big rectangular tubing (.090 wall? .125 wall? Don't remember) and welded it into the subframe.

3) You need to fab up a front mount. This proved easier than expected, the subframe's got funny angles top/bottom here but you just drill a 1/4in hole through both layers of the crossmember where the mount stud needs to go, then put a 6in long piece of 1/4in drill rod in a holesaw arbor with a 1.75in holesaw on it and run the rod (and holesaw) up through the crossmember guided by the small hole, weld a piece of 1.75 x .125 wall tubing (old rollbar tubing in my case) up through the now-big hole to form the mount tower, and weld a plate to the top extending out to the edges of the crossmember for the mount to sit on. Nut goes right up through the tube from the bottom. Took me 2 hrs to think of it and an hour to actually do it.

4) From my measurements the rear Duratec SLO mount tower is close enough to be usable if you slot the hole a bit. I think there's folks who disagree with that conclusion. I'll know if my answer's right in a couple weeks.

The Gen 3 steering rack is a high-zoot ZF Servotronic rack typical of those found in BMWs, Audis, Jaguars, the Lincoln LS, a few Cadillacs, etc. The Gen 1 rack, by comparison, is scrap metal. I'm not aware of anyone who's yet actually hooked up the SARC box from the Gen 3 to implement the variable-assist feature, but it looks trivial to do (the vehicle-speed pulse-count input to the box is the same as the Gen 1/2 VSS output) and I plan to do it.

I'm not really doing this for improved handling or anything like that, because I don't think there's much to be gained in raw grip. I'm doing it for ride quality and the Servotronic steering.

FWIW I had the Servotronic rack on a Gen 1 subframe and everything fit fine, so I expect that if you didn't care about the better-isolated Gen 3 lower control arm setup you could probably just bolt up the Gen 3 rack to the stock subframe, work up the plumbing and call it a day.
 
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Jonny Cash

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I think you also have to use the Gen 3 sway bar endlinks, but I'm not sure on that either.

No, those can stay original. The struts can be an issue when installing because the A-arms on the gen3 SF will only press down so far before hitting the frame. Its alot easier (sometimes it the only way) to drop the ball joint into the A-arm before you tighten down the SFB's. You may have to tighten/loosen one side at a time. And obviously you will need the G3 knuckles because the balljoints are different. The Gen3's are pressed into the knuckle, as opposed to the flimsy G1/2 which is one with the LCA.

I'm not really doing this for improved handling or anything like that, because I don't think there's much to be gained in raw grip.

No, you buy sticky tires for that. As far as limiting flex, there certainly is alot to gain. The G3 steering parts are alot more heavy duty.
 
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Power Surge

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And what is the purpose of putting a Gen3 subframe in a Gen 1/2?

If it actually fits, has anyone put the V8 in a Gen 1/2?
 

JEM

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And what is the purpose of putting a Gen3 subframe in a Gen 1/2?

The Gen 3 front suspension is somewhat different, it uses a one-piece stamped and welded steel lower arm and a forged aluminum hub carrier with (curiously enough) the balljoint in the hub carrier. The geometry is a bit different, and the bushings used are a directional design similar in design to (and based on the markings sourced from the same supplier as) those in a typical BMW. This should reduce impact harshness while maintaining better wheel location.

The manner in which the lower arm bolts up is totally different than the earlier cars, you cannot swap the arms without swapping the subframe.

The Gen 3 SHOs (but not SLOs or Sables) also have a very high quality ZF Servotronic steering rack that eliminates the absurd slop present in most if not all Gen 1 racks (I think in having driven maybe a dozen Gen 1s over sixteen years I can only recall one that did not have two inches of slop on-center in the rack - and no I am not talking about loose U-joint pinch-bolts, I also know what those feel like - it's unimportant on the track but a real annoyance on the road.)

The V8 might fit in the earlier car, but...with minimal displacement advantage (none viz a Honda-journal V6 stroker like DeaconBlue's) and less tuning expertise out there, and a slushbox, the only real advantage might be weight reduction over a Gen 2 ATX (the iron-block V6 is a very heavy motor for its size.)

Now, if someone actually did do the work to bore and sleeve a V8 out to 3-liter Duratec bore size for a 4-liter displacement, that'd be a big step in the right direction, but you'd still have to do something about the transmission.
 
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ilSHOu

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Jem, thank you for the great write up! Let me know how things go for you. That is exactly the info I was needing to put me over the top on doing this. Also let me know your results with the swap as mine won't be getting done for a couple weeks anyway. Thanks everyone for the help keep it coming, seth
 

naval-avi8or

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And what is the purpose of putting a Gen3 subframe in a Gen 1/2?

If it actually fits, has anyone put the V8 in a Gen 1/2?

I did! :dribble:

You will use the endlinks for the appropriate year/gen strut as they are only different at the strut mounting location.

The true lower control arm of the GEN 3 suspension is an improvent in handling and nose dive under braking way beyond the GEN 1/2 strut rod design. It handles so much better than the GEN 1/2 suspension. Throw in the ZF rack and better powersteering assist and you will be pleased with the swap even if you just do the subfram/suspension.
 

naval-avi8or

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The manner in which the lower arm bolts up is totally different than the earlier cars, you cannot swap the arms without swapping the sub frame.

I might be a little confused of which GEN you are talking about here but the GEN 3 lower control arms can be changed without swapping subframes. If you are saying that you can't replace a GEN 1/2 strut rod set up with a GEN 3 lower control arm that would be correct (can't replace an apple with an orange)

The V8 might fit in the earlier car, but...with minimal displacement advantage (none viz a Honda-journal V6 stroker like DeaconBlue's) and less tuning expertise out there, and a slushbox, the only real advantage might be weight reduction over a Gen 2 ATX (the iron-block V6 is a very heavy motor for its size.) .

Several members have weighed both engines and unless there was some errors in weighing the V-8 and V-6 weigh the roughly the same (not enough for an advantage). You gain 15HP/15ft/lbs torque with the V-8 and the ability to tune it much easier thru OBD 2 with a Xcaliber. Oh and there is no V-6 that can emulate the sound of a V-8. There's not as much aftermarket stuff yet and may never be however the things you can gain the most from could easily be adapted to the V-8 (turbo, supercharger, Nitrous etc.) Tranny still the weak link but improved from the GEN 2 slush box.

Now, if someone actually did do the work to bore and sleeve a V8 out to 3-liter Duratec bore size for a 4-liter displacement, that'd be a big step in the right direction, but you'd still have to do something about the transmission.

I would be truly amazed if there was enough block to bore it out at all let alone get it up to 4 liters.
 

Power Surge

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I did! :dribble:

You will use the endlinks for the appropriate year/gen strut as they are only different at the strut mounting location.

The true lower control arm of the GEN 3 suspension is an improvent in handling and nose dive under braking way beyond the GEN 1/2 strut rod design. It handles so much better than the GEN 1/2 suspension. Throw in the ZF rack and better powersteering assist and you will be pleased with the swap even if you just do the subfram/suspension.

Do I really have to ask??? Can I see some pics?? :hail:
 

JEM

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If you are saying that you can't replace a GEN 1/2 strut rod set up with a GEN 3 lower control arm that would be correct (can't replace an apple with an orange)

That's what I'm saying.

I would be truly amazed if there was enough block to bore it out at all let alone get it up to 4 liters.

The 2.5L and 3.0L Duratec blocks are the same external dimensions; the stroke's the same, the bore spacing is the same, the only difference is the bore of the cast-in liners. The V8 is a 2.5L Duratec with two extra cylinders.

So...the question gets down to how thick is the cast-in liner, and how thick is the aluminum the liner is set in? The 3.0L bore is 7.5mm larger, which is a fair chunk, but if you've got a decent-quality shrink-in sleeve you could take out a lot of aluminum and still have a usable block.

Given the nature of the cast-in liners (the backsides embedded in the Al are spiky, and once you've gotten rid of most of the liner you'll have little bits of iron embedded in the block) I'd think the only way to get rid of it without tearing up the block is to bore it out with progressive very small cuts - laborious and, if you're paying someone to do it, probably expensive.

I once thought about buying a cam-failed engine and tearing it down and handing it off to an engine guy I know to see if the old liners could be bored out without tearing up the remaining aluminum too badly or hitting a bunch of water, but then I realized that I don't really want to spend my life trying to bolt up a manual transmission to a SHO V8. Maybe the easiest way to get a quick read on the possibilities would be to introduce a scrap block to Mr Bandsaw and cut some bore sections out.

FWIW the Yamaha-built 4.4L V8 in the XC90 and new S80 has many of the same basic dimensions as the SHO V8 (same stroke, same bore spacing) but a much larger bore still. The block is notably different in appearance, and the engine has lost all of its Duratec oddities like the front-cover layout and cam-driven water pump.
 
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Ishodu

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I can post a pic of the one I plan on dropping in next week. I test fitted it Thursday night with a block and tranny and now its waiting on paint.
 

Ishodu

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Here are the pics I promised. I finished painting it today.
P5050055.jpg

P5050056.jpg

P5050057.jpg
 

excidere

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I think I might have to pick up gIII subframe and start work on this mod myself....

Ishodu: Out of curiosity, what did you paint that with?
 

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