need serous stopping power

[Shoaz]

the striaght is 3200ft and i imagine i'll have a 40-50mph entrance speed. by my guessing i'll be going well over 100mph probably closer to 140 or higher and have to slow to probably 45-50 for turn 1. i contacted a local performance shop. I asked for a full track pad for the front and something sticky for the rear. does anyone have expierence with what he reccomended for me?

Hawk DTC-70 race pads for the front cobra calipers - 205

Porterfiel R4 pads for rear sho calipers - 119

I'm not familiar with the Hawk pads, but if your rear brakes are stock I'd think R-4S (Porterfield street pads) rather than R-4 might be a better idea. The R4 is a full race pad and isn't really that necessary on the rears. FWIW, I ran R4 pads on the front and R4S on the rear for a long time with very good results.

again i'm on 11.6 rotors but i really fear that i might run into serous problems with these brakes. where can i get the 12.5" brakes because i'm still running slicers.

If you're reasonably careful the 11.6" brakes can probably be used, especially for this event (i.e., you're not racing and won't need to out-brake anyone), and especially if you ventilate them.

edit:i'm also strongly considering lowering the boost to 6psi for a roadcourse.

That's not a bad idea.

 

[Toolman]

Who needs brakes? Brakes slow you down! I want to go FAST!!!

 

[nc89sho]

Who needs brakes? Brakes slow you down! I want to go FAST!!!

i just throw the car into reverse and use raw horsepower to slow down

 

[RJ-92]

If you're reasonably careful the 11.6" brakes can probably be used, especially for this event (i.e., you're not racing and won't need to out-brake anyone), and especially if you ventilate them.

I disagree. You will want atleat 12x1" or 12.5 x 1" rotors. I boiled my brake fliud at Watkins Glen after 8 laps with the same brakes you are running. My car is lighter and a tad slower than yours. Your car, with those calipers will over power your rotors and you are looking at some serious heat issues with them. Shoaz, Don't forget hw is running a full weight ATX that's probably 100+ lbs heavier than stock with ~350Whp.

 

[HotRodKid]

well considering we fadded the heck out of the brakes just dcking around on some backroads, he might have to upgrade.

now dont get me wrong, they came back pretty quick, but by the look of the course, on spurt of our backroads fun was equal to about a single lap of that track

 

[Shoaz]

It's all about management. You can melt down the 12.5" brakes, too. I know, because I've done it. It doesn't really matter how big your brakes are, if you overdrive them they're going to fade, and you can always overdrive them at the track. Even 13" brakes, and I don't care what kind of calipers or pads you're using at the time, if you overwork them they'll fade, catch fire, boil, whatever.

Given that pretty much any size brake kit has to be managed, it doesn't take that much more atttention to make an 11.6" kit stay alive during a session as it does a 12.5" kit. You may not be braking as late or as hard as some people, but that actually doesn't have nearly as big of an effect on lap times as other aspects of driving technique.

Lance has been tracking his car with the 11.6" brakes for a long time. It's lightened, but nevertheless it's an existence proof of a car that gets driven hard at the track with the 11.6" brakes and iron calipers.

So it's an option for those who don't want to spend a lot of money on brakes just for an infrequent or one-time event. You can definitely drive bigger brakes harder, but you can also have a good time and turn decent lap times with smaller-brakes-than-the-other-guy if you just manage them properly.

And ventilation makes more difference in my experience than incrementing the size.

 

[SHO92]

Running those hawk race pads, I'd recommend bringing at least 1 extra set of rotors with you. They are very aggresive, but eat rotors. I'd stick with the R4s pads in the rear too.

I run Raybestos semi-metallic pads in the rear with Hawk HP+ up front, and I barely show any wear in the rear. I have the bias plugs too, fwiw.

 

[K-Dawg]

I've done a track day or two with the regular '96 upgrade without much problem. The pedal can get a little soft but the brakes are always still there.

 

[somedude_001]

Lance has been tracking his car with the 11.6" brakes for a long time. It's lightened, but nevertheless it's an existence proof of a car that gets driven hard at the track with the 11.6" brakes and iron calipers.

the stock calapers on 11.6's with ford pads would take a lot more heat than these hawk HP+ pads. like I said 2-3 medium speed stops and they are smoked the ford pads lasted a LOT longer.

so you guys think i can make the 11.6's with brake ducts work with those pads if i'm kind of easy on them. you also have to rember that most of you guys get engine braking from your MTX and i get very little from my ATX. I have also made a program in the tweecer for the transmission to keep it in high revs all the time and only upshift shift at 6500rpm.

I think we may be able to make ducts using the front corner lights and wraping them around the top of the fender and introdusing the air via the tie rod area.

Running those hawk race pads, I'd recommend bringing at least 1 extra set of rotors with you. They are very aggresive, but eat rotors. I'd stick with the R4s pads in the rear too.

I run Raybestos semi-metallic pads in the rear with Hawk HP+ up front, and I barely show any wear in the rear. I have the bias plugs too, fwiw.

did you have any problems overheating with those pads? and definately run the R4S pads in the rear.

i'm hesitant to put bias plug in my car because the rear tires lock up first but this is a result of the massive nose dive. would bias plugs reduce nose dive because the LAST thing i want to do is make the car more squarly because the rears are locking up faster. that already scares the crap out of me on the streets when i'm at high speeds and have to stop fast.

 

[Shoaz]

so you guys think i can make the 11.6's with brake ducts work with those pads if i'm kind of easy on them.

You can make any brake work if you're easy enough on it. It's all a trade-off. I'm just saying it's possible to do with 11.6" brakes. If they start getting hot you'll need to back off a bit, but that's true with any brake setup.

I think we may be able to make ducts using the front corner lights and wraping them around the top of the fender and introdusing the air via the tie rod area.

Mine go from the fog lamps and just blow in the general direction of the caliper. Like this:

It's not too hard to remove the fog lamps and replace them after the event.

i'm hesitant to put bias plug in my car because the rear tires lock up first but this is a result of the massive nose dive. would bias plugs reduce nose dive because the LAST thing i want to do is make the car more squarly because the rears are locking up faster. that already scares the crap out of me on the streets when i'm at high speeds and have to stop fast.

The bias plugs move the brake bias as far to the rear as possible, so if you're already locking up the rears I'd think they'd be a bad idea. It is possible to adjust the bias valve, so maybe you can dial in a little less rear brake with that.

 

[jedhead]

You can get 12.5 set up from Baer Racing. However the caliper will require some grinding to fit under slicers. My calipers were ground when I got them. I would consider getting Todd's wilwood setup that will fit under slicers. 4 piston calipers and a very large selection of pads. Also the wilwood setup is one of the lightest so you will get better handling too.

http://tceperformanceproducts.com/

Bob

 

[drivinhard]

where can i get the 12.5" brakes because i'm still running slicers.

On the track!?! I would highly highly suggest some 8" wide wheels for track work. 6" is way too skinny for a car this heavy, let alone one with a blower.

Also, re: the track, a lot of the C5 Z06 testing was done by GM at gratton, IIRC front straight speed on them was ~120 mph. If you've got a blown SHO, I would say your speeds would be similar. I've never run it, so I don't know how much speed you have to scrub off, etc.

 

[shomesomesho]

i just throw the car into reverse and use raw horsepower to slow down

I agree.. the last thing you want to do in autocross is brake and slow down.

On the (autocross) course, the primary purpose of braking is to help rotate the car, e.g. promote turn-in and induce oversteer. If it were somehow possible to induce the necessary forward weight shift to effectively accomplish these things in a Taurus, without slowing down, then there would be absolutely no need for brakes. Often you can get away with keeping it floored into the turn then just lifting the throttle without touching the brake pedal; the engine braking effect coming down from 7000 rpm is enough to cause the needed oversteer from the brisk forward weight shift. It is much faster than using the brake pedal. (Granted, superior levels of traction are usually necessary to accomplish this feat.)

The secondary purpose of brakes (in autocross) is to stop the car from running into the spectators, the fence, or the wall after you've crossed the finish line at 60+ mph. In that sense, brakes are admittedly necessary, and braking becomes literally, the last thing you want to do on the autocross course.

[runs and hides with tongue-in-cheek]

 

[HotRodKid]

Mine go from the fog lamps and just blow in the general direction of the caliper. Like this:

It's not too hard to remove the fog lamps and replace them after the event.

Somedude's turbo SHO has a bit of stuff in the way of that:

plus the filter -to-turbo pipe, which consists of a diesel K&N on the drivers side, a pipe all the way across the bottom of the bumper , an elbow up at the PS fog, and an elbow into the front of the turbo ....

 

[somedude_001]

It's not too hard to remove the fog lamps and replace them after the event.

i kind of have turbo plumbing in the way covering both of my fog light opening completely. the only way for me to get brakeducts will have to be from the corner lights.

The bias plugs move the brake bias as far to the rear as possible, so if you're already locking up the rears I'd think they'd be a bad idea. It is possible to adjust the bias valve, so maybe you can dial in a little less rear brake with that.

my distribution block is so corroded that i'm afrade that if i do anything with it. it will have to be replaced. but i'm wondering if I do upgrade the rears or do plugs if it will reduce weight transfer so the rears don't lock up. that is why they lock, all the weight is comming off of them and it causes teh ABS to kick in and you can forget about stopping once the ABS activates.

On the track!?! I would highly highly suggest some 8" wide wheels for track work. 6" is way too skinny for a car this heavy, let alone one with a blower.

Also, re: the track, a lot of the C5 Z06 testing was done by GM at gratton, IIRC front straight speed on them was ~120 mph. If you've got a blown SHO, I would say your speeds would be similar. I've never run it, so I don't know how much speed you have to scrub off, etc.

on that long ass straight? I would have expected faster but hey that puts me at ease a bit. FYI my car is a bit faster than a C5 vette (non ZO6)

and I don't have a ton of money to drop on new rims tires full brakes, double core rad, oil cooler, P/S cooler, oh god I have a huge list of crap. I think I will definately need a double core rad though.

 

[TYSHO]

Damn, I don't know much about turbos and the heat associated with it, but I would think that thing is giving off heat right there by the brakes. Wouldn't that only make it worse?


Edit: By the way, your brake set up looks good, Eric.

 

[somedude_001]

Damn, I don't know much about turbos and the heat associated with it, but I would think that thing is giving off heat right there by the brakes. Wouldn't that only make it worse?


Edit: By the way, your brake set up looks good, Eric.

the turbo does pump off a good bit of heat, but all of the pipes are well wraped and there is a *** on the turbo. we are also going to re install the innerfender and duct the turbo heat on top of the inner fender and out behind the tire. so turbo heat isn't a huge issue but it definately a factor. as it sits now the right brake fades first which violently makes the car pull to the left but within a second I loose both fronts so I don't stop at all, and with the rear end all happy and dancing around because all the weight is off the rears it can make 100mph hard braking interesting. it isn't dangerous but you do have to stay on your toes driving my car for sure.

 

[chknhwk]

Hawk DTC-70 race pads for the front cobra calipers - 205

I've run Hawk HT-10's on both mine and my girlfriends Cobra with no issues. You can get them a bit cheaper through Raceshopper.

Porterfiel R4 pads for rear sho calipers - 119

I agree with the other assessment, the R4S would probably be better and cheaper.

again i'm on 11.6 rotors but i really fear that i might run into serous problems with these brakes. where can i get the 12.5" brakes because i'm still running slicers.

Uh, turbo SHO engine with skinny tires and small brake rotors doesn't sound like a very good track-friendly combo. You might be spending most of your time fighting the car instead of really learning how to drive and enjoying yourself.

edit:i'm also strongly considering lowering the boost to 6psi for a roadcourse.

Probably not a bad idea.

 

[somedude_001]

Uh, turbo SHO engine with skinny tires and small brake rotors doesn't sound like a very good track-friendly combo. You might be spending most of your time fighting the car instead of really learning how to drive and enjoying yourself.

i just purchased a set of tires for my slicers because the 17" rims I have are extremely heavy (probably 30-35lbs each!) but I got azeni 615's. they actually put power down pretty good if I don't brake torque it in first. second+ it hooks fine. i don't know about cornering and braking with these tires because it was cold and icy in spots i wan't going to press my luck.

edit: I have been putting in a bunch of applications in for a second/better job so I can get the car ready for track day. I need more money

 

[chknhwk]

i just purchased a set of tires for my slicers because the 17" rims I have are extremely heavy (probably 30-35lbs each!) but I got azeni 615's. they actually put power down pretty good if I don't brake torque it in first. second+ it hooks fine. i don't know about cornering and braking with these tires because it was cold and icy in spots i wan't going to press my luck.

edit: I have been putting in a bunch of applications in for a second/better job so I can get the car ready for track day. I need more money

Amen on the better job! I've been hounding a company 2.2 miles from my house that pays time and a half vs straight time and a significantly higher starting salary than what I'm making now. Maybe I'LL be able to get my race car started!

I've heard nothing but good things about the Azenis 615's but remember, the ONLY thing that makes and keeps a car fast on the track is the contact patch. Good luck!