Brake Discussion

[PonySHO]

...some hate how huge it is and think it's a waste of an engine.

I hear ya on the size... I didn't realize how big it was until I got it in my garage. I saw a Fusion and a Taurus next to each other at the dealer, I was thinking I didn't realize how small the Fusion was! As far as a waste of an engine, they're putting it in a Flex. I wouldn't go as far as saying it was a waste, but it is a bit overkill.

 

[RonPorter]

I boiled my ATE fluid at VIR running Hawk Blue pads with my Hoosier GAC slicks on a 95 degree day. The V's brakes are pretty potent and after almost losing it entering Turn 1 at VIR, I'm willing to throw anything I can at it to keep the brakes working...

I stand by my statement.

With better brakes, you should be spending less time on the pedal. On tracks, the trick is "hard and short" rather than "soft and long". The less time on the brake pedal, the better.

If you boiled ATE, there are other issues.

 

[jedhead]

Ford Heavy Duty Brake fluid has a very high boiling point and works very well. You need to change it frequently because the boiling point drops quickly when the fluid get contaminated with water.
The 2010 SHO was very nice and powerful. It just wasn't the kind of car I was looking for. I went with the V because it had IMHO a nicer interior, more features that I liked and most of all a V8 and RWD.
What I find funny and somewhat ironic is in 1993 Ford SVT came by and visited the SHO Registery SoCal chapter at the SHO Shop. Ford wanted to know what we wanted in the next SHO from Ford. We told Ford we wanted a 3.5L twin turbo V6, AWD and 6 speed manual. The GEN3 ended up a V8 with an auto. I had a 1998 and I loved the sound of the V8, but always wished it had more power. Here we are 15 year laters and we have 2 of the three things we requested at that meeting long ago.

Bob

 

[RonPorter]

There are a ton of former SHO owners with Vs. Most of us appreciate Ford bringing back the SHO...even if it's nothing like the original. Then there are Ford haters, in general who will hate anything Ford. Some respect the performance and some hate how huge it is and think it's a waste of an engine.

Hard to peg down a dominant faction...

Remember that BMW is now going to smaller engines with turbos, rather than their previous high-winding small engines.

I'm glad I'm not in the market for a car (I need a work truck first). A 6-speed 335 would be a tough choice against a new SHO slushbox.

 

[RonPorter]

Ford Heavy Duty Brake fluid has a very high boiling point and works very well. You need to change it frequently because the boiling point drops quickly when the fluid get contaminated with water.

Bob

Ford HD fluid is a 90s thing. Look st the list that I put in my edited post above. Ford HD doesn't have the Dry advantage anymore, and there are others that are comparable and have better wet capabilities for street use.

 

[PonySHO]

Ford Heavy Duty Brake fluid has a very high boiling point and works very well.

Bob

10-4 on that. From I've heard, only thing better is going silicone.

edit: Ron, I guess it's been a while since I've kept in touch huh!

 

[RonPorter]

10-4 on that. From I've heard, only thing better is going silicone.

edit: Ron, I guess it's been a while since I've kept in touch huh!

Yep. Ford HD is yesterday's news.

There are other brake fluids out there that have far better #s (at a far higher cost) than the stuff in my list above.

BUT......they are only useful for serious racing events for heavy use, like 24-hour racing with 200+ mph cars.

 

[PonySHO]

There are other brake fluids out there that have far better #s (at a far higher cost) than the stuff in my list above.

Roush, Hendrick, Jr. or some team owner said, "Racing is the quickest way to turn $2 million into $1 million.

 

[thebigjimsho]

I stand by my statement.

With better brakes, you should be spending less time on the pedal. On tracks, the trick is "hard and short" rather than "soft and long". The less time on the brake pedal, the better.

If you boiled ATE, there are other issues.

I doubt it. The V's calipers turn gold with hard use. Mine were already starting to before that VIR event and have gotten darker since. I've done a number of events since with no brake issues. The brakes are healthy.

And I had an instructor with me so my braking was as good as could be expected.

 

[typhoon5000]

I replaced, seasoned and tested out my rotors on the Vic today. I knew of a big mostly abandoned parking lot to do everything on. I'm sure the people that parked off on the corner for a small building there were getting annoyed of me doing full throttle then brake maneuvers all day but it was a lot safer than doing it on any roads near me and there's also a freeway adjacent to it to do cool down runs on.

I started out by benchmarking the powerslot rotors, I warmed them up with a few 50-75% 60mph stop, then did 3 hard stops from a marker/tree I used as my start. I also bought some chalk to mark everything off. They came in between 115' and 123' from 60mph (stock brakes are rated around 120' IIRC). They were also pulsing pretty bad and not very consistent. So then went home and replaced them. Went back, bedded, cooled down and tested. They came in with runs of of 117' 6", 113' 6", 108' 8" and 111' 10". So I would say an average improvement of 5-7', as well as the peddle feels much better and the initial bite felt better too.

One other thing is I have to make a correction, The guys at Command Automotive got back to me with a quote on the cryo HD rotors and they are $130 A PIECE, not per pair . They better suck my you know what for that price . I'll stick with my warrantied, made in the USA, $37 Napa's.

 

[drivinhard]

I boiled my ATE fluid at VIR running Hawk Blue pads with my Hoosier GAC slicks on a 95 degree day. The V's brakes are pretty potent and after almost losing it entering Turn 1 at VIR, I'm willing to throw anything I can at it to keep the brakes working...

Funny you should mention that, as last weekend w/ NASA at VIR I had posted on another forum that going into T1 there was the first time I could have used more pad than the Carbotech XP10's on the C5Z. I have tried the 12's (not at VIR), they don't *seem* to have any more bite but that's different than actually testing them. Alas, i was too lazy to switch pads in the pits (had some spare 12s in the box). It's a hard braking zone mostly because it's hugely fast (traqmate says 145.4 mph) and you basically have to park the car as you have to get the car stopped to essentially come back the other way.

So far, the best thing I've done on these C5 slide rail PBR's is put in the stainless pistons. the pedal stays firm so much longer than with the alum pistons. I run Ti shims as well, and have full spindle ducts on the hubs/rotors.

IMHO with something as fast as the new SHO in a straight line (and will be even faster with kirk and these guys wicking up the boost) AND the weight, I can't see the stock slide rail hardware holding up @ 10/10ths, regardless of pads, etc. Figure the kinetic energy of a 4,400 lump doing 140 mph. *edit, I will*

4,400 lb and 140 mph = 2,835,188 ft lbs
3,400 lb and 140 mph = 2,185,930 ft lbs

1,000 lbs adds 700,000 ft/lbs of energy at the same speed! That translates to a ton of extra heat as the brakes simply convert energy into heat.

IMHO (for serious 10/10ths tracking) the thing will need an extremely rigid 4/6 *** that is set up for thick pads and 14" rotors and proper ducting/cooling. Realize this will probably take some wheels with excellent caliper spoke clearance.

 

[SHOZ123]

Do you want the extra clearance just to accommodate larger calipers or for better cooling? I guess I mean to ask, can the caliper clearance be too close (assuming no interference)?

 

[SHODWN]

I replaced, seasoned and tested out my rotors on the Vic today. I knew of a big mostly abandoned parking lot to do everything on. I'm sure the people that parked off on the corner for a small building there were getting annoyed of me doing full throttle then brake maneuvers all day but it was a lot safer than doing it on any roads near me and there's also a freeway adjacent to it to do cool down runs on.

I started out by benchmarking the powerslot rotors, I warmed them up with a few 50-75% 60mph stop, then did 3 hard stops from a marker/tree I used as my start. I also bought some chalk to mark everything off. They came in between 115' and 123' from 60mph (stock brakes are rated around 120' IIRC). They were also pulsing pretty bad and not very consistent. So then went home and replaced them. Went back, bedded, cooled down and tested. They came in with runs of of 117' 6", 113' 6", 108' 8" and 111' 10". So I would say an average improvement of 5-7', as well as the peddle feels much better and the initial bite felt better too.

One other thing is I have to make a correction, The guys at Command Automotive got back to me with a quote on the cryo HD rotors and they are $130 A PIECE, not per pair . They better suck my you know what for that price . I'll stick with my warrantied, made in the USA, $37 Napa's.

So you have a V too? It just has a IC (ick)at the end

 

[drivinhard]

Do you want the extra clearance just to accommodate larger calipers or for better cooling? I guess I mean to ask, can the caliper clearance be too close (assuming no interference)?

how good are your wheel bearings

I think a lot of the big brake kit's ask for .085+ of spoke caliper clearance.

the clearance is simply for making everything fit, not for extra cooling.

the problems because you start hanging caliper bodies that use fat pads and have pistons hanging out the outside of the caliper, most wheel spokes won't clear.

Some PR1.2's in the new SHO's bolt pattern, 18x however fat you can make them to clear struts and fenders

 

[SHOZ123]

how good are your wheel bearings

I think a lot of the big brake kit's ask for .085+ of spoke caliper clearance.

the clearance is simply for making everything fit, not for extra cooling.

On my new car it comes with Brembos and 19" wheels. You can get some 17"s that fit but they only have about an 1/8" clearance. Should be no problem eh?

 

[typhoon5000]

So you have a V too? It just has a IC (ick)at the end

Nope, that's Vic for Crown Vic.

 

[NJSHO]

Can you still find the Valvoline syth? I went looking a couple of months ago and nobody was carrying it anymore. I ended up with the Castrol GT LMA fluid and have been just as happy.

If you want to run Motul 600, go ahead, but you are wasting your money.

Motul 600 is good for heavy NASCAR cars running 500 mile races at 180 mph, but for track events, Valvoline Synthetic is MORE than adequate for anything you do, including track events. Some folks like the ATE fluids, but at 2x the price of Valvoline, they offer little gain over it.

EDIT: Here's the list:

DRY WET
Castrol LMA DOT 3/4 446 311
Ford Heavy Duty DOT 3 550 290
Performance Friction 550 284
Valvoline Synthetic 3/4 502 343
ATE Super Blue Racing 536 392
ATE TYP 200 536 392
ATE SL DOT 4 500 329
Motul Racing 600 585 421
Prospeed GS610 626 417
Castrol SRF 590 518

If you are cooking Valvoline at a typical DE track event, you aren't driving right.

 

[SHOZ123]

I just bought some at AutoZone last month.

 

[RonPorter]

I just bought some at AutoZone last month.

+1

As well as at O'Reillys

They changed the label on it maybe a coupla years ago, and added $1 to the price.

Still a deal, though.

 

[PonySHO]

Does the SHO have bigger rotors than the SEL? I see the SE comes with 17" wheels. I never really checked caliper clearance before I ordered 18" wheels for the winter because it looked like an enormous amount of space in there. I looked up Taurus specs and the front rotors were 12.4" while the rears where 13.0"... curious. It didn't break out different models in that spec.