Back from the Abyss: Cranks but won't start.

[haydenm315]

Looking to make at least one last hurrah here with the old gen 2. Car's been dead for about a year with some brake, battery, and starter issues. Had to rebuild a front caliper with steel pistons, replace master brake cylinder, replace the starter, and get a new battery. I took care of all that, go to crank and it starts right up. She runs for a few minutes and then the engine stops unexpectedly. Too good to be true.

Will crank all day, but won't start. Pulled codes and got 114 and 519. I think both of those aren't related to no-start conditions. No dreaded PIP signal code. One's a cold air temp and the other power steering, likely me not turning the wheel back and forth when it was running. I get fuel pump prime and there's fuel at the rail. Tach isn't flat on 0 when cranking, maybe around 200. Is this a normal value? I read someone here mention that it should indicate a bit higher like 500-700 when cranking. I unplugged the CID wiring and tach responds the same. Used to think tach was hooked up to CPS, but I've read from others it's really CID? Also MIL is solid when cranking which I think indicates an issue. Computer was replaced not too long ago, as the capacitors on my original had aged out. I also replaced the DIS with an aftermarket one from rock auto. Don't recall what led me to replace the DIS.

Can you test the CPS by unplugging the dis and metering wire 4 on the DIS signal input plug while cranking? I get fluctuating voltage but less than 3-7 in that test. The dis plugs are pretty sealed up, so kinda tough to get access to the wires. Maybe a paper clip or a needle in the back side to back probe? Also looks like there are a bunch of breakout boxes for sale on ebay. Would any which specify eec-iv work here. Might be worth the $100-200 if I can probe every ecu pin easily.

 

[SHOrod]

Yep, if Ford used the CKP sensor for the tachometer they'd have to divide by two since the crank makes two revolutions for every one revolution of the camshafts/engine system. Unfortunately I'm not sitting in front of my home PC with the service manuals to offer much help on where it's easiest to tap the CKP sensor signal, but I can confirm that if it's not present it will cause a no start, as well as a stall if it fails while the engine is running. Do you happen to have access to an oscilloscope? If so, that will provide a much more accurate "picture" of the condition of the CKP sensor.

Have you confirmed the issue is no spark versus low fuel pressure or possibly a timing issue? Low fuel pressure could still look like a lot at the fuel rail, but not be enough to start the engine or keep it running.

-Rod

 

[haydenm315]

I don't have an oscilloscope yet. I have an led test probe. I went through the following dis electrical tests.

PIP to Control unit - Passed
SPOUT to DIS module - FAIL
IDM to control unit - FAIL
CID at sensor - PASS
COIL PWR - PASS

I did recently replace the master cylinder and unhooked a few things on the driver's side such as a fuse box. Pretty sure I got everything hooked back up. It did run for a few minutes and sounded real good, so wouldn't think timing. Also wasn't sputtering when it went down, and the walbro fuel pump sounds good.

Next steps pull the ecu? I just replaced that dang thing a handful of years back.

 

[zoomlater]

crank position sensor testing

Hi Folks, Is there a way to test a crank position sensor off the car?? I didn't see any threads in that direction.. thx T

shoforum.com

 

[haydenm315]

I measured resistance on the Crank sensor. There's nothing shorted but I don't have the 10k ohms like the post mentions. I measured around 300 ohms between both pip pins and ground. About 900 ohms between pip and pwr pin.

 

[zoomlater]

did you try checking using post # 43, you might have to do some disassembly. I remember Nick Chrimes had another way to check, but I can't find his post

I cannot find a CKS. Anyone know where to find one?

Maybe but often when they fail it is intermittent so a bad reading would be good but a good reading might not necessarily mean it is trouble free.

shoforum.com

 

[zoomlater]

you can try what NoSlo suggests

how to determine my crank sensor is dead?

car wont start, has no spark.

shoforum.com

 

[haydenm315]

did you try checking using post # 43, you might have to do some disassembly. I remember Nick Chrimes had another way to check, but I can't find his post

I cannot find a CKS. Anyone know where to find one?

Maybe but often when they fail it is intermittent so a bad reading would be good but a good reading might not necessarily mean it is trouble free.

shoforum.com

I did the probst dis test and observed signal on dis pin 4. does that only cover the dis wire from the crank sensor? Seems like I still have some testing to do. If I understand correctly, I'm looking for signal from the crank sensor wire that feeds the ECM/ECU/PCM, because i'm not getting SPOUT from the ECU. Lack of SPOUT being due to lack of signal from the crank sensor the likely culprit.

 

[FastCAD]

Looking to make at least one last hurrah here with the old gen 2. Car's been dead for about a year with some brake, battery, and starter issues. Had to rebuild a front caliper with steel pistons, replace master brake cylinder, replace the starter, and get a new battery. I took care of all that, go to crank and it starts right up. She runs for a few minutes and then the engine stops unexpectedly. Too good to be true.

Will crank all day, but won't start. Pulled codes and got 114 and 519. I think both of those aren't related to no-start conditions. No dreaded PIP signal code. One's a cold air temp and the other power steering, likely me not turning the wheel back and forth when it was running. I get fuel pump prime and there's fuel at the rail. Tach isn't flat on 0 when cranking, maybe around 200. Is this a normal value? I read someone here mention that it should indicate a bit higher like 500-700 when cranking. I unplugged the CID wiring and tach responds the same. Used to think tach was hooked up to CPS, but I've read from others it's really CID? Also MIL is solid when cranking which I think indicates an issue. Computer was replaced not too long ago, as the capacitors on my original had aged out. I also replaced the DIS with an aftermarket one from rock auto. Don't recall what led me to replace the DIS.

Can you test the CPS by unplugging the dis and metering wire 4 on the DIS signal input plug while cranking? I get fluctuating voltage but less than 3-7 in that test. The dis plugs are pretty sealed up, so kinda tough to get access to the wires. Maybe a paper clip or a needle in the back side to back probe? Also looks like there are a bunch of breakout boxes for sale on ebay. Would any which specify eec-iv work here. Might be worth the $100-200 if I can probe every ecu pin easily.

KEY-ON.

 

[haydenm315]

I'm getting a max of 1.8volt fluctuating signal out of the pip pins on the crank sensor. I backprobed the crank sensor while someone else cranked it. It makes a test light blink, but pretty faint. This doesn't sound right.

I tried to repeat the last test with KEY-ON and was measuring .950M Ohms on each pip pin to ground. Is that normal? Definitely not shorted which is what I think they were trying to get at.

I do have 12 v on the vbat/power wire. Some threads say I should get 12v pulses on the PIP. The eec dis test referenced says 3-7 volts fluctuating signal. I have less than that regardless. I tried bumping the starter to catch the high/low hall effect going on. Guy on youtube said it's a little bit of work to catch the on/off voltage without an oscilloscope, which I don't have. The highest voltage I'm sending out the pip pins is 1.8DC and lowest around 0. Battery is gonna need a charge if I keep this up for too much longer.

I also unplugged the crank sensor and measured the pins on the connector which the crank sensor plugs into with the KEY-ON. THere's about 12v on the vbat wire and 5v on the PIP to EEC wire. Starting to seem like it's a bad crank sensor that's gone completely south? I'm near 100k on this sensor, but most of those miles were more than 5 years ago. Any other suggestions, or is it pretty clear there's a crank sensor fault here? I would think that having 12v in, spinning the motor should get me good strong signal out on the pip pins. Since I don't have good signal, it's toast?

It's still weird that I could get the car started initially, and then it just shut down. It hadn't heated up and I didn't see any coolant leaking. There were no crank sensor codes stored. I'm not measuring a short. Haven't seen any threads on here which state low voltage coming out of the pip signal wires. Is that a thing on these sensors?

 

[FastCAD]

I'm getting a max of 1.8volt fluctuating signal out of the pip pins on the crank sensor. I backprobed the crank sensor while someone else cranked it. It makes a test light blink, but pretty faint. This doesn't sound right.

I tried to repeat the last test with KEY-ON and was measuring .950M Ohms on each pip pin to ground. Is that normal? Definitely not shorted which is what I think they were trying to get at.

I do have 12 v on the vbat/power wire. Some threads say I should get 12v pulses on the PIP. The eec dis test referenced says 3-7 volts fluctuating signal. I have less than that regardless. I tried bumping the starter to catch the high/low hall effect going on. Guy on youtube said it's a little bit of work to catch the on/off voltage without an oscilloscope, which I don't have. The highest voltage I'm sending out the pip pins is 1.8DC and lowest around 0. Battery is gonna need a charge if I keep this up for too much longer.

I also unplugged the crank sensor and measured the pins on the connector which the crank sensor plugs into with the KEY-ON. THere's about 12v on the vbat wire and 5v on the PIP to EEC wire. Starting to seem like it's a bad crank sensor that's gone completely south? I'm near 100k on this sensor, but most of those miles were more than 5 years ago. Any other suggestions, or is it pretty clear there's a crank sensor fault here? I would think that having 12v in, spinning the motor should get me good strong signal out on the pip pins. Since I don't have good signal, it's toast?

It's still weird that I could get the car started initially, and then it just shut down. It hadn't heated up and I didn't see any coolant leaking. There were no crank sensor codes stored. I'm not measuring a short. Haven't seen any threads on here which state low voltage coming out of the pip signal wires. Is that a thing on these sensors?

minimum 10 ohms. key on.
you can try to clean the cks contacts and re-position it to get at least 10 ohms. either way you have to get to it which is not that hard. the crank bolt is "19mm". make sure you are not leaking coolant from the bottom of the water pump. if you replace the cks check the ohm output again "after" it is in position before you button everything up.
best to ya.
p.s. if you replace the cks do yourself a favor and draw a diagram of the front engine cover(s) on a piece of cardboard and punch holes in it where the bolt you take out goes so they go back where they came from (some of the bolts are different lengths) i use anti-seize on almost every bolt because of the alum. (but that's just me). shosource is a good place to get the cks.

 

[haydenm315]

Realized that I have a crank sensor on a spare motor in my garage so I took that off last night. Didn't have time to actually install, but did a quick test by plugging the donor sensor in and turning the key on. With a washer inserted in the sensor I get over 10dc volts on both pip wires. Take the washer out, and 0 volts. Also some fuel pump activity when I put the washer in there. Would say this is pretty damning evidence that my old crank sensor bit the bucket, died in dramatic fashion, isn't shorted, and more than likely is dry as a bone. Wonder what I'm gonna find down there.

 

[haydenm315]

After replacing the crank sensor, it started right up. The cks that was giving low voltage had some rusty bits accumulated on the magnet and doesn't look so hot. Maybe some coolant leaking in there from the water pump along with 20 years of rust belt did it in. About time for another one of those front maintenance jobs. At least I know it's still alive.