A quick oil question for you rod bearing guys

[RonPorter]

The 93 was on Mobil 1 all it's life but just prior to me getting it, it was switched to another brand for it's trip to Michigan from Arizona, I don't remember what was in it. Since I've had it I've used Castrol GTX High mileage. There are many who rave about the quality of Castrol GTX and I tend to agree with them after I've seen many photos of many good results from bearing changes and clean valve galleries.

Apart from all of the other oil stuff, there is a definite difference in high-mileage oils. I had two experiences with it. First was the '95 MTX that had leaky crank seals. Second was the '94 MTX with leaky valve seals.

The first informal test was on the '95.Without al of the details, Castrol High-Mileage was the best at stopping the leak. Pennzoil High-Mileage was 2nd. Quaker State did nothing.

Second test was on the '94. It had 168K when I bought it. It had Mobil 1 5w-30 it's entire life (two SHO enthusiast owners) and it went through 800 miles/ quart due to valve seals. I went to Castrol High-Mileage 10w-30, and the consumption dropped to 1600 miles/quart. On the long trip to the CA Convention and back, where it was very hot with a lot of highway use I went through 3 quarts in 5500 miles. the High-Mileage oil seems to do it's "seal swell" thing better when the engine gets really hot for a long period.

Paul Nimz, who also does a lot of informal testing and analysis, has also found Castrol to work best as a High-Mileage oil.

 

[dstig1]

92 5spd - Original owner, 152k miles, just did the rod bearings yesterday. Haven't started it up yet as I am waiting for a front main seal to show up so I can put the front of the engine back together.

Mobil1 5W30 from the first oil change until about a year or two ago when I said, "Enough. The car is old." Now using 5W30 Valvoline non synthetic. I'm not perfect about my oil changes - I aim for 4-5000 miles, but have been known to drift to 7000 a couple times over the years when I got too busy.

My driving is normally freeway commute - 15 miles each way, not much stop & go. That plus the usual local stuff for errands, etc. It's been my daily driver for 13.5 yrs, plus occaisional longer trips.

Here's what they look like. Uppers on the right, Tranny end is at the top.
Click to see a HUGE picture

Rod bearings certainly needed changing, but I saw no sludge at all. Just clean (but used) oil. For an example of what the oil looked like, see my other thread for a look inside the engine upper end: http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=53865

 

[Rockledge]

Dave, those are probably the most evenly worn SHO rod bearings I've seen up to this point in terms of a cylinder vs. cylinder comparison. Looks like they served their purpose well for the 150K that they were in there. But it was time for them to get replaced, nonetheless.

P.S. A link to the address of the pic would probably work better.

 

[dstig1]

Here:

http://home.comcast.net/~dstig1/SHO/Rod_Bearings_152k

Should have reduced the image size before I posted it.

And what can I say about the even wear excpet I always TOLD my cylinders to fire evenly...

 

[RonPorter]

Those bearings look great!! They would have gone a lot more miles quite easily (50-100K). A bit of copper on one side is no big deal.

It confirms (to me, anyway) that good care by an original owner elminates a LOT of service issues. Too many used SHOs were not maintained and driven properly and a lot of the SHO problems are purely due to this, not to any inherent design issue.

 

[TankII]

do you have to call me a kool aid drinker? :corn:
do you know for certain the 80 hour test is bogus?
do you want the company name that performed the test? :wave:
do you know that I sell Amsoil @ dealer cost? its cheaper than
overpriced Mobile One at Wal Mart.
Can you prove Amsoil makes sludge?
I have been trying for 6 years now,
no sludge yet

before you say things you cant prove or produce fact for, rethink the way you say things, especially dont say you dont want to start a Amsoil discussion, I know why you dont want to, but thats another story
Javier

Jumping in here late...

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/062002appE.pdf#search='SG%20Oil%20Tests%20IIIE'

The 80 hour test? SAE IIIE test is a 240 hour test at low speeds specifically for sludge buildup. However, the SAE VE is a 64 hour test (The latest version may be 80 hours) and is a higher speed, very high temperature test. This is the test that may be referred to. Yes, sludge DOES build up as certain components break down and start jelling up in the engine. We (At Texaco Research in the late 80's early 90's) also tested competing oils and various additives. We were probably the most severe lab in comparision to Lubrizol and Southwest Research (The main oil testing contractors in the industry) and had trouble passing many highly rated over the counter oils. The VE test was usually the test that showed the true colors of an oil. The IIIE and EC-II tests seemed to be easier for most companies to pass everywhere. These are both low-speed/load tests.

Think about it. 64 hours at 3,000 RPM, and an over the counter oil could break down completely before the 55 hour mark.

BTW, the original Mobil 1 always passed the extended version (Double-legnth) of this test.

TankII

 

[RonPorter]

Jumping in here late...

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/062002appE.pdf#search='SG%20Oil%20Tests%20IIIE'

The 80 hour test? SAE IIIE test is a 240 hour test at low speeds specifically for sludge buildup. However, the SAE VE is a 64 hour test (The latest version may be 80 hours) and is a higher speed, very high temperature test. This is the test that may be referred to. Yes, sludge DOES build up as certain components break down and start jelling up in the engine. We (At Texaco Research in the late 80's early 90's) also tested competing oils and various additives. We were probably the most severe lab in comparision to Lubrizol and Southwest Research (The main oil testing contractors in the industry) and had trouble passing many highly rated over the counter oils. The VE test was usually the test that showed the true colors of an oil. The IIIE and EC-II tests seemed to be easier for most companies to pass everywhere. These are both low-speed/load tests.

Think about it. 64 hours at 3,000 RPM, and an over the counter oil could break down completely before the 55 hour mark.

BTW, the original Mobil 1 always passed the extended version (Double-legnth) of this test.

TankII

Knowing we are at the risk of prolonging another thread hijacked by Amsoil.........

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two kinds of "sludge" (maybe that isnt the right terminology for either/both cases).

The sludge that gets formed as oil breaks down due to extreme temps, as you describe in the 64-hour test.

The sludge that forms from short-trip driving that doesn't burn off water and other deposits in the oil (the 240-hour test?).

I can see where some oils couldn't survive the 64/80 (whichever it is) test, but I don't see how any oil can survive abuse from short-trip driving where things never get to proper operating temperature.

 

[TankII]

Knowing we are at the risk of prolonging another thread hijacked by Amsoil.........

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two kinds of "sludge" (maybe that isnt the right terminology for either/both cases).

The sludge that gets formed as oil breaks down due to extreme temps, as you describe in the 64-hour test.

The sludge that forms from short-trip driving that doesn't burn off water and other deposits in the oil (the 240-hour test?).

I can see where some oils couldn't survive the 64/80 (whichever it is) test, but I don't see how any oil can survive abuse from short-trip driving where things never get to proper operating temperature.

Note that I'm no expert on this, but from experience at Texaco Research...

Sludge is sludge, whether emulsified (Low temp - Moisture and carbon ridden) or burnt (High temp - No moisture but the VI improver can't maintain proper VI index). It is a buildup of oil that has either changed its polymer chains or has attached to carbon atoms. Note that sludge is a substance that is thick to immovable, is NOT pumpable, and can build up on any surface that doesn't have oil flowing in a rapid fashion over it. Varnish is a hard, carbonized coating that is molecules thick and coats passages with oil flowing rapidly as well as areas that are at higher temperatures. It usually forms prior to sludge as the oil starts its breakdown.

TankII

 

[yamapowered]

Jumping in here late...

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/062002appE.pdf#search='SG%20Oil%20Tests%20IIIE'

The 80 hour test? SAE IIIE test is a 240 hour test at low speeds specifically for sludge buildup. However, the SAE VE is a 64 hour test (The latest version may be 80 hours) and is a higher speed, very high temperature test. This is the test that may be referred to. Yes, sludge DOES build up as certain components break down and start jelling up in the engine. We (At Texaco Research in the late 80's early 90's) also tested competing oils and various additives. We were probably the most severe lab in comparision to Lubrizol and Southwest Research (The main oil testing contractors in the industry) and had trouble passing many highly rated over the counter oils. The VE test was usually the test that showed the true colors of an oil. The IIIE and EC-II tests seemed to be easier for most companies to pass everywhere. These are both low-speed/load tests.

Think about it. 64 hours at 3,000 RPM, and an over the counter oil could break down completely before the 55 hour mark.

BTW, the original Mobil 1 always passed the extended version (Double-legnth) of this test.

TankII

tankII you are right, at 80 hrs conventional oil completlly broke down that was tested, and the Synthetic oil that was tested was still good after 240
hr continus use, the test was to simulate 60mph road speed load.

the facts prove themselves to the ones who take time to absorb the information, learning from both ends of the experience makes one choose
a lubricant manufacture.

I apologize in advance to the insulted ones for posting additional info on this thread
Javier

 

[Mr Anonymous]

tankII you are right, at 80 hrs conventional oil completlly broke down that was tested, and the Synthetic oil that was tested was still good after 240
hr continus use, the test was to simulate 60mph road speed load.

the facts prove themselves to the ones who take time to absorb the information, learning from both ends of the experience makes one choose
a lubricant manufacture.

I apologize in advance to the insulted ones for posting additional info on this thread
Javier

Yes, the ability to be indoctrinated into any belief will be determined by the ease at which someone can absorb the propaganda targeted at them.

Let's be clear here. I like Amsoil products and use them in my car. However, I didn't make my decision to use it based on anything Amsoil had to say. Just like any manufacturer of any product, they are going to try to portray their products in the best light. Anyone selling their product by simply parroting their sales literature repeatedly is doing them a disservice.

I chose Amsoil because of reports from many people whose opinions I value about extended change intervals and reduced operating temperatures. I found the reduced operating temps to be immediately noticeable, especially in the tranny. The reduced change intervals are simply a bit of a comfort zone since I can't always get around to changing the oil on time -- BUT -- regardless of what the bottle says, I don't keep the oil in there for more than 7000-8000 miles.

I am not however an Amsoil robot. On occasions where my car was due for an oil change and Amsoil wasn't immediately available, I didn't hesitate to put in the cheapest Wal-Mart oil I could find, I just make sure I change it next time right at 3000 miles. If I knew that I could change my oil religiously every 3000 miles, I would choose the Wal-Mart stuff 100% of the time.

All that being said, I'm not going to live and die, or scream at the top of my lungs (or tips of my fingers as the case may be) until everybody chants Amsoil sales pablum in unison.

 

[Mike Kelly]

API service letters

Does anyone have a bottle of Amsoil laying around? If so, does the bottle have a API service emblem on it? If so, what are the letters after the API service wording. Thanks Mike

 

[yamapowered]

Amsoil 10w30 has this rating
API SM/CF, SL, SJ ...

ILSAC GF-4, 3 ...

ACEA A5/B5

JASO VTW
GM 4718M, 6094M
Ford WSS-M2C205-A

Daimler Chrysler MS-6395N
VW 503.00
hope this helps
Javier

 

[Mike Kelly]

Api

I saw that on the web site, just wondering about the starburst sticker
( design style) information on the bottle. Mike

 

[yamapowered]

went to the shop and the bottle says the same thing