60k Over Rated?

[Huntervf]

I'd rather be a little "****" than be stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Point being, lack of a valve lash adjustment won't leave you stuck in the middle of nowhere. Well I shouldn't say that...it could but the odds of it happening are very remote. The only way you could get stranded would be if you ejected a shim, and that could just as easily happen with fresh shims.

 

[PROPHET]

Point being, lack of a valve lash adjustment won't leave you stuck in the middle of nowhere. Well I shouldn't say that...it could but the odds of it happening are very remote. The only way you could get stranded would be if you ejected a shim, and that could just as easily happen with fresh shims.

Thank you!

 

[Bank of SHO]

The discussion is not limited to valve lash. I hardly think it **** to replace the "suggested" yet still functioning parts considered a part of a 60k. The cost is minimal compared to the time needed to replace them as they go. It's nice to know there is a long window of expected reliability.

 

[DHMag]

ive long said, replacing electrical components at 60K or 100K wont insure another 60-100K miles of operation. you may replace an OE 200K mile crank sensor with a brand new Motorcraft sensor and it could possibly go bad the next day. electrical components dont know miles like a timing belt or valve shim.

mechanicals of 60K are not over rated.

electricals of 60K are over rated.

 

[Huntervf]

I think where the "****" portion comes in to the 60k is when people decide to replace a whole pile of items just to do it. For example, aside from what's already been discussed I've heard some people list the following as 60k work:

Thermostat
Temp sending unit
Water pump
Rod bearing
Coolant flush
Power steering flush
Upper & lower intake manifold gaskets
Oxygen sensors

Add the above items with the 60k staples and you can easily top $1000 in parts alone. To me that's ****, but preventative maintainence will help keep you from getting stranded.

Electrical parts of the 60k however are NOT over rated. Spark plugs and wires have a definite shelf life and are quite often the root of running problems on any higher mileage car that hasn't been maintained.

In the end though, it's all about personal choice

 

[DHMag]

I think where the "****" portion comes in to the 60k is when people decide to replace a whole pile of items just to do it. For example, aside from what's already been discussed I've heard some people list the following as 60k work:

Thermostat
Temp sending unit
Water pump
Rod bearing
Coolant flush
Power steering flush
Upper & lower intake manifold gaskets
Oxygen sensors

Add the above items with the 60k staples and you can easily top $1000 in parts alone. To me that's ****, but preventative maintainence will help keep you from getting stranded.

Electrical parts of the 60k however are NOT over rated. Spark plugs and wires have a definite shelf life and are quite often the root of running problems on any higher mileage car that hasn't been maintained.

In the end though, it's all about personal choice

personal choice, i agree. my car ran for 130K with original plugs and wires. suggested change interval is 60K most commonly, occasionally 30K, depending on application. a bad plug or wire wont leave you stranded, itll leave the vehicle running poorly though.

 

[Yamaha V6]

Well, from my "****" point of view:

If you're in there, why pull it apart twice? The SHO has known "weakpoints" (I hestitate to call them that, probably "known likely component failure intervals" is better). If you're in there replacing the water pump at the expected 70-120k miles typical failure, why wouldn't you replace the crank sensor as well? For that matter, if you looked, the front crank seal's probably borderline as well, and if you're at 70k, why not replace the ~$50 timing belt also? It's coming off during the service anyway, why not put a new component back on instead?

To take it a step further, this is even more important (IMO), when you're PAYING someone to pull it apart. Here's February - you bring the car to your favorite mech, who charges you to pull it all apart to replace a leaking front crank seal. 2 months & 2k miles later, the water pump starts to weep. So you bring it back, and he charges you the same labor to pull it all apart again. You're paying to duplicate labor - WHY?

I have an expectation of failure on certain components. COMPLETELY AGREED, the electronic sensors will fail whenever the heck they feel like it on this car, be it 20k miles or 220k miles. A friend of mine went through 3 crank sensors in <50k miles. Others go 190k on the original timing belt.

Anyway, my point is, if you're in there, think about what else you may want to replace while you're in there. I offer my customers the complete engine-front & complete engine top services, so they pay that labor ONCE. Using the term "60k" is loose - it's usually 120k by the time someone comes to me. More often than not, a customer has come from a dealer's previous service for the water pump replacement, and then has me replace everything else after. I had a customer who had a car at the dealership, and a friend of his who also owned a SHO had just had his engine-front done with me to fix a failing crank sensor. The friend had the 2nd customer call me, I told him what was very likely wrong (again, intermittent ignition failure, wait, and it'll start again). I also told him to look for the potential WP failure. He told me he was going to have the dealer replace the sensor, then drive it up to me to have me replace everything else. I told him don't bother, have the dealer replace this, this, and this (etc.) while you're in there - don't pay the labor twice, just ask if the dealer would quote you a single price instead of book time for each component. In the end, he ended up towing the car up to me instead, since the dealer wasn't sure what was what before diving in.

Anyway, there's a reason some of us are **** about replacing multiple components while in there. Mine are tiny cuts all over my hands; yours may be keeping more of that green in your pocket, or putting it toward parts instead of labor (something I'd do any day).

 

[shojuan]

Do you want your SHO running like a top or not? Doing an "****" 60k goes a long way towards that goal. The car can run like crap in a steady state of decline for quite some time BUT the risk of something bad happening is not improving in a SHO under the tutalege of the cheap/lazy SHOwner. Risk goes down when the care goes up. Driver satisfaction won't remain forever in a car that doesn't get its infusion of "restoration" money.

I'd rather take a cross country trip in sdpatt's SHO with 300,000 miles on the clock than Rob94's with a third fewer miles. Odds are greater that the car will make the trip without incident. Odds are greater that the car will feel sound too. To 60k or not to 60k? Do you want to drive a SHO whose cup is perpetually half empty or a SHO with a cup near full?

 

[sdpatt]

Of the 20 or so 60k services I've done I've never found a SHO with either:
A. A valve lash more than a .001-.002 off.
B. Any appreciable wear on either valve shims or lobes.

I have many times on both counts. You're either working on fortunate engines or....

 

[Devin]

I think what it really comes down to is price/labor vs. effectiveness. No one wants to tear their car apart multiple times. I am doing it for the first time and never want to do it again. However there is some logic behind not wanting to change everything. I have my car in the perfect position: the engine is on a stand and the car is on blocks. I can do whatever I want to it right now. However, I am not going to do the valve lash, I am not going to get the valves ground, I am not going to replace the timing chain, I am not going to replace every sensor, I am not going to replace the main bearings. I have hit a ceiling of labor and money where the potential returns are not as great as the money I put into it. I could make a zero mile engine but that would add another $1000 and another year onto my already 2 year endeavor.

All you guys that can tear a SHO apart in an hour, do your work and have it done before the Game have all the power to change just about anything on your car. Those of us who need guidance from this board, the Chiltons and just staring at our problem for an hour need more time and money, thus we will be less likely to do the whole thing.

 

[Diameg]

I have many times on both counts. You're either working on fortunate engines or....

.....or what?

I wouldn't want to speculate because it sounds like that's a dig at Hunter's ability. That's why I feel it would be best to ask you to elaborate than to assume because I wouldn't want to accuse you of meaning something that you don't.

 

[Huntervf]

It's ok, I didn't take it personal. I don't know how many SHO's Scott as worked on...personally I've done somewhere between 20-25 60k services, from 89's to 95's, ATX & MTX. Maybe I had fortunate SHO's, maybe not. I will say that a good portion of those cars were driven pretty hard by their drivers, most had other issues like oil in the wells, failing CPS sensors, thin brakes etc and just about every one of them were caked with dirt & grease under hood. As well, some of them had heads full of nice dark brown caramel, while some have been clean. Some tappets had clearances a couple thousandths off the mark but most have been in spec, and of all the shims I've replaced (I've pulled/inspected every shim on the 60k's I've done, save for the last two on my own cars) I never found one with wear that I would consider bad. Some were worse than others, but none were bad. That comes out to somewhere around 432 shims total (24 shims per car x 18 cars). In my book that makes for a pretty good average. I don't presume to debate individual experiences or preferences; Scott is obviously an intelligent man and well versed in SHO mechanics...and I certainly don't mean to say that the valve lash is unimportant or unnecessary. We just differ when it comes to the frequency and importance of doing the work. What can I say? I guess the SHO's in Texas just aren't as strong as they are in Michigan

 

[Denny]

Of the 20 or so 60k services I've done I've never found a SHO with either:

A. A valve lash more than a .001-.002 off.
B. Any appreciable wear on either valve shims or lobes.

This was on cars up to 200,000 miles, and a majority of the cars had a valve lash that was in spec. The ones that stick out in my mind being out of spec were a 190,000 mile 92 and a 160,000 mile 93. I can't remember what Beth's car was at when I did the 60k but I seem to remember it having a few shims a little out of spec. On the cars that were out of spec they were running strong and had valvetrain noise that didn't sound out of the ordinary.

[\QUOTE]
Hey Chris, don't forget my 90, at around 163K 22 of the 24 gaps were out of spec

 

[Huntervf]

Oh I remember your car Denny...I'll never forget trying to get that stupid pass rear intake bracket off. Neither will Greg Actually I think your car has the distinction of being the "worst" 60k in terms of condition, and while most of your valves were out of spec I don't recall anything being more than .002 out, and nothing looked horrible.

 

[Bizzy]

I can't remember what Beth's car was at when I did the 60k but I seem to remember it having a few shims a little out of spec.

When we did my top 60k my car was in the neighborhood of 136k. None of the shims were out of specs, but we adjusted them to closer to what they should be. Now the intake.....that was a different story. Remember that?

I think that the 60k service is a needed service that will keep the car running the best all the times. I'm sure that keeping the valves in adjustment will produce less wear on the engine. I know that the car will not just stop running if it's not done exactly at 60k or even 80k.

When I drove my car after the top 60k it felt like a whole new car. Had the front 60k been done at the same time I'm sure I would have felt much more of an improvement. So IMO the 60k service is something that is needed and should be done. But I also feel that it can be done in stages which will make it more affordable for the owners. If you maintain your car it will last for many years and miles to come, so to me the 60k is an important thing just like oil changes are.

 

[sdpatt]

... or the engines you have worked on were last touched by Yamaha technicians and not the fumbling fingers found in many unqualified shops.

... or the shops in your area have been much better at taking care of a unique engine than the ones of which I have witnessed the unfortunate effects.

... or the previous owners of the cars that are now owned by a SHO enthusiast took better care of the SHOs than those early owners who thought the car was "just a Taurus" and told the Jiffy **** to use the "cheapest you've got."

What I have seen from my experience is that the SHO engines that have never had the valve covers off are in better shape than the ones that have been serviced by shops that didn't know a SHO from a hole in the ground. Yamaha did a great job assembling the SHO engines that were plugged into our SHOs as they came from Ford. It is the untrained, non-professional mechanic that can do the most damage to the SHO's valvetrain. I have told owners that they are better off letting the valve gapping go until they can get an experienced SHO mechanic than allowing an untrained shop to dig into the SHO's valve train.

With the dozens of valve gapping services I have done, I have seen it all. The largest gap I have found was on the cylinder number 4 exhaust valve on SHOFUN 93's late 1993 ATX. That gap was nearly .5mm versus the nominal .30mm setting. The heads had been rebuilt following an overheating episode. Most engines had no more than 2-5 gaps out of spec on the high side, but there has even been a couple that were out of spec on the tight end of the spectrum. Those tight clearances could only have been created by an improper gap setting - not engine wear.

The valve gaps that I have found to be far out of spec had been touched by hands after leaving the dealership for the first time. I suspect that these are due to improper methods when measuring the gap and determining the proper shim thickness or even not having the correct shim on hand. The valve gapping job takes an experienced hand. Until a good set of those hands is available, the gapping should be deferred.

When I finish a valve gapping service, the owner is given a completed valve gapping worksheet that displays "as-left" gaps set at the nominal setting or one feeler gauge thickness tighter and 24 unused shim surfaces to touch the cam lobes. Most of those services also include the range of items including new valve cover and plug well seals, new intake gaskets, new spark plugs, new plug wires, external and internal cleaning of the intake manifold and head ports, cleaning of the valve covers and cleaning of the idle air control valve.

I also have a scrapbook of worn cam lobe pictures. The most severe set was found at the initial 60K and was the apparent victim of the first 60,000 miles being lubricated by none other than Mobil 1. Every one of those 24 cam lobes showed tree ring like wear on the lobe tips. The synthetic oil had been used since break-in (mileage?) and was changed every 3,000 miles according to the SHO-loving owner.

That owner was shocked and saddened when he saw the wear. His SHO received 24 new shim surfaces touching those cam lobes (as in all the valve gapping services I have done) and the recommendation of a high quality petroleum based oil like none other than my faithful Castrol GTX.

Other worn lobes had scratched shims beneath them. Some of the scratches I have seen on shims could not have been created by the engine, but only by improper handling outside of the engine.

Some worn cams and shims were due to chemical corrosion. I have seen more than one engine that evidenced what I would call chemical etching on the shims. I can only guess as to the cause, but I would suspect that it was due to poor quality oil, overly long change intervals or oil additives.

I applaud and give thanks to those who care enough for their cars and the cars of others to take the very best care of them. The most deserving in this group are those folks with the skills, abilities and opportunities to perform the detailed and life giving services on the SHOs with their own talented hands. Without this dedicated group of enthusiasts, unique cars, like our favorite SHOs, would not provide the enjoyable, effortful and long lasting lifetimes that they have been given. Thanks to all of you for helping to keep the SHOs on the road.

THAT is what I mean.

 

[Huntervf]

Beth I remember the intake. And if you post that picture I WILL be paying you a visit, and I fear for the safety of your PC

Scott:

 

[shojuan]

Thanks to all of you for helping to keep the SHOs on the road.

Well I KNOW I'm not alone when I say thanks to YOU for helping so many people help themselves keep their SHO's on the road.

 

[SHOPWR]

my 94 SHO has 114k on it and i am JUST ABOUT ready to start my 60k tune-up.im just waiting on the shim kit i rented from dr. tweak of SHOPP. i will keep you all posted on how my cam lobes look and what i find for valve clearances. and i think i am taking a step in the right direction with my 60k i am adjusting valve lash specialty tool and shim kit rental, changing timing belt, chain tensioner for left head (last one brand new from Prattville Alabama ford dealership) sparkplugs & sparkplug wires, waterpump,crank position sensor,engine coolant temp sensor,thermostat, valve cover gaskets, intake gaskets those are all the parts i have for a grand total of $950 i will also be doing a powerstrearing flush and coolant flush and the parts i have already put on with in the past month are HO2's, goodyear gatorback serpentine belt and a cam position sensor. total of $145. how is that for a 60k tune up. im doing all of this cheaper than what Sioux Falls Ford dealership originaly quoated me at around and they said could possibly even be more than $1500 for everything im doing and have listed. so i figured i would do it myself now that i have time.

 

[Bank of SHO]

Well I KNOW I'm not alone when I say thanks to YOU for helping so many people help themselves keep their SHO's on the road.

No, you're not alone. My SHO would been sold long ago but for the help of those in-the-know who make this forum the "SHO Forum". As it is I have a near mint SHO, my first rust-free car. Special thanks to Scott who actually took the time out of his busy schedule to email me through tough spots.