sigh... have fun wasting your time examining the current end gap on worn rings in worn cylinders and trying to convince yourself an industry megalith is incompetent and not you. This thread has gone off the rails in Stu.pidville and crashed into the short bus. Unsubbing from this ridiculous nonsense.
piston ring swap with engine in car
- Thread starter withku
- Start date
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“worn rings and worn cylinders” i really can’t tell if you’re messing with me now.
seems you all think my measurements are just wildly off, you can’t even consider the fact mass produced products can have defects?
all i’ve gotten in response to this is “you don’t know what you’re doing”. considering y’all are aerospace engineers and such, i might as well just throw away my certs and gauges.
genuine question, how are you any more qualified to use feelers than i am? i am certified, but apparently that means nothing. i am as confident in my skills as you are in yours.
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yaycandy
Aerospace Engineer
You are still checking ring gap new or old in a wore cylinder. You have yet to pull the block and work on it…
So no your measurements are not accurate when you using an out of round cylinder as your verified ring gauge.
Maybe pick up a used engine to install. You dont wanna see what happens to your engine when the gap is wrong once the boost kicks in after spending months rebuilding it. We are just trying to help the best we can.
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“your measurements are not accurate when you are using an out of round cylinder”
.002” is not that bad though, would it really affect that much?
regardless of that #4 gap is still way off spec. something is screwy.
yaycandy
Aerospace Engineer
Ill share my end clearance conversion chart with you. Let me get it out of my tool box on the floor
yaycandy
Aerospace Engineer
Find what your cylinder size is supposed to be from factory. Measure your cylinder in 4 spots left to right and find your deviation from factory spec size. Convert your out of roundness to your deviation size. Add conversion to the low and high end of the ring gap tolerance and shoot for nominal or tighter. You add the ones in thousandths to your spec, not tenths
Jet engines still have sealing rings and cylinders.
Jet engines still have sealing rings and cylinders.
Bluezone
Tailgaters will be prosecuted.
Out of curiosity are you using a dial bore indicator, inside micrometre or a transfer device? Plus how are you validating accuracy of the measuring device? Just trying to eliminate any variables.
yaycandy
Aerospace Engineer
Its what i do everyday as i am hands on instead of in an office, as i am also a machinist. Aerospace is way more advanced then simple internal combustion engine work.
Inconel crowned od sealing rings for Pratt, there is even a picture of the stealth which i also still design and make parts for…
Inconel crowned od sealing rings for Pratt, there is even a picture of the stealth which i also still design and make parts for…
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Bluezone
Tailgaters will be prosecuted.
Very cool. I've worked in machine shops as well. Mainly turbochargers, reactor parts, Weapons Systems and steering components. Turbochargers are a pain in the a s s. Measurements in.00005 of an inch.
Had a electronics engineer cousin, r i p, who worked on Apollo and missile systems.
Had a electronics engineer cousin, r i p, who worked on Apollo and missile systems.
yaycandy
Aerospace Engineer
I have parts on the James Webb space satellite, and on Curiosity Mars rover. I usually machine Titanium, carbon and inconel within .00002-.00005 tolerance. With flatness specs down to .00001 (millionth)
Also have aero test rigs. Design a part, go out and make it, and then install it into a test rig to prove it out. Oh how its a nightmare of a process. Cant have a part go out bad, fighter jets cant just pull over if an engine fails. Good thing they have ejecto seats
telescoping gauge and inside micrometer. i can’t really validate accuracy , no gauge block and i only have cheap tools.
yaycandy
Aerospace Engineer
Thats why you should bore mic it or id mic it squarely in 4 or more spots to see the total roundness. Should pull the block and get it honed good on a machine, hand honing isnt good for high performance like turbo pressures and high heat. Especially with the block in the car.
You can get a better than stock crosshatch which may do the engine better with holding oil on the cylinders better
the program i tested through is Aviation Maintenance, you of all people should know it’s not a lax course. granted i’m no sheet metal tech or machinist, but my experience is good enough for cars.
Bluezone
Tailgaters will be prosecuted.
Yeah I don't like much working with inconel and titanium. Haven't had to do carbon, very delicate.
Yeah kind of hard to be accurate with those kinds of measuring tools. Takes lots of practice and still hit or miss without extreme patience or daily exposure to usage.
Bluezone
Tailgaters will be prosecuted.
That's for sure. Don't want to make a mechanical error and be responsible with aircraft if something goes wrong.
yaycandy
Aerospace Engineer
Im spoiled as we have many 3d parts scanners and cmm’s. Ive made all kinds of car parts on the 3d parts scanner. Just throw the projection back into cad and change what you want. Do some methods, and do cam program to make most of it on a multi axis mill. Thats what i do on my weekends lol
yaycandy
Aerospace Engineer
Actually you cant hand hone an aluminum cylinder block straight. They need to be done in a machine. They install a 1 inch or so thick metal head gasket looking adapter to the block called a torque plate and then torque it with the same bolts you will use on your heads to spec as it pulls the cylinders up straight. As the cylinders are not true perpendicular without the head being on and torqued down
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Messing with you? Please, please don't tell me you think the way your engine sits today is the way it was assembled!?
Well let's see... you've already admitted to not know how to measure ring gap once. You've misreported ring groove clearances to us. You've stated the ring width to be ridiculously small, to the point that just a glance at a photo is enough to say confidently you're wrong. You've told us your bore is actually smaller than spec. You report measurements that should be taken at a minimum of 0.0001 in ranges of 0.01 and 0.001. You admit your tools are junk. You claim you're using a telescoping gauge and inside micrometer; for the life of me I can't figure out how you'd use those two together so that makes me think you can't even name the tools and mean to say outside micrometer. But given that even the absolute cheapest harbor freight mic set reads out in .0001 increments, I'm led to believe you're not using a micrometer at all but a caliper instead.
Distrust in your measurements and belief in manufacturing defects are not mutually exclusive.
First, if I'm not mistaken the FAA does not certify minors. There's a big difference between being a certified and experienced working aviation mechanic, and having a certificate of completion for some course. I have a friend that maintains Apaches, maybe I'll ask him to explain the process as admittedly I'm being ignorant. 2nd, In my trade (commercial/industrial HVAC) the guys that go to school for it invariably prove to be less than useless when they get out into the world. A lot of them attend the exact same schools that teach aviation technology. A few become competent after few years, a lot survive as incapable "sales techs", and some go back to cutting grass for a living.
Third, I told you days ago that I'm not an engine expert. But the difference between us (aside that I am now 37 and have been turning wrenches since I was half your age) is that you're approaching this with cocky arrogance, and I approach everything with caution, apprehension, and extreme attention to detail. Most of my machine building experience lies in large refrigeration compressors and small engines. Once you build something and get to watch it spin at 3600 rpm for 40,000 hours straight then you begin to earn a little confidence in your abilities. Until then, don't try to measure up to me (pun intended). Myself and many others here have had to hold your hand through every single little step of troubleshooting and tearing down your engine over the last couple months, and yet somehow we're not worthy of questioning the abilities of supreme Lord God Emperor Mechanik Withku? Why don't you go look back to when you were still chasing that puppy tail begging us to interpret compression tests for you, and see who was the one that said your ring lands were broken...
If you were just still asking for help and information it would be fine. It was inspiring to see a young guy so interested in doing all his own repairs. But this tangential obsession with trying to find something Ford did wrong so you can prove your mechanikal might just continues to demonstrate the opposite, and you're so clueless you can't even recognize it. It's nonproductive and annoying. And For that reason, I'm out.
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again, i’m as confident in my skills as you are in yours. who are you to tell me my measurements are off? have you checked them? or you just calculate measurements based off photos? please tyler, teach me. i find it hilarious your 37 year old self is this committed to refuting some measurements made by a teen.
Ta2dResqr
SHO Member
And here you go again proving the exact points that he made in his post. You need to get off the computer, eat a piece of humble pie, and come back with a different approach. With this method all you are doing is creating enemies and getting people to ignore any post with your name on it. There are a lot of smart, certified, EXPERIENCED individuals on this forum. Obviously, you know better though. So go build your motor your way and let that humble pie be a poor running or blown motor. Then maybe you will realize the people here are not only very knowledgeable but also very helpful. *follows @stripSHO and exits this downward spiral*
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