Starting issue verification please

[Snake2715]

Starting issue verification please *UPDATED with codes.

Ok,

Yesterday I did a search and read through 15 of the 20 pages of threads on hard starting.

I personally think my sho takes a little to long to start. After reading the info I did a few tests here are my results:


In the morning the car cranks 5-7 times before a start. Also the case is the same after sitting for a while.

I tried to "prime" the pump and I can here it kick on. It sounds fine. I do this 3-4 times and it starts a little quicker.

I also checked and the tach bounces in the 200-400 range when the key is turned over and its cranking. The battery seems fine and the starter seems fine.

The length of start time without priming the fuel pump is not longer or shorter on a full tank rather then an empty tank of gas. Read that it doesnt matter how much gas I have the symptom stays the same.

No check engine light on when trying to start or intermittenly throughout driving the car. I have yet to pull codes and will do that tonight to see if any exist.

It doesnt seem to be leaking coolant.

The car has 54,000 and the 60k is yet to be done until early next month as money and time will permit.

Any ideas?

I am thinking its either normal or maybe the check valve in the fuel pump is starting to have problems. I am so new to the car I have no idea how long this has been going on. ( I have owned it a week and a half)

Thanks

 

[NiNeTy Fo SHO]

My first thought would be the IAB (idle air bypass valve...or something) its lets air in when you arnt pressing the gas pedal so the car can idle.

The next time you go to start it when it would usually take awhile to start, as soon as you turn the key to start the car, hit the gas pedal a few times to open the intake to let air in...if it works and the car starts right up (no long cranking) then I would think your IAB needs cleaned/replaced.

Just an idea...

Edit: Oh, my '94 used to have longer cranking times, then replaced the IAB (long crank times, sometimes wouldnt idle right after letting off the gas) and its starts up after a second or so...

and since Im editing anyway...post 400....woohoo :****: ....Prophet...you dont have anything on me...

 

[Snake2715]

Thanks for answering I was hesitant to even ask due to the many subjects similar to this and people thinking i didnt search.

One quick question. If it does indeed start right up I will go ahead and replace the IAB or at least clean it. From what I read some havent had luck cleaning and needed to replace the unit.

Either way wouldnt pushing the gas pedal also force the pump to push gas to the engine?

Thanks

 

[NiNeTy Fo SHO]

Yea, I agree that many havnt had luck with cleaning it, so I got a used one from a fellow SHO member. Works great with no problems. You could try cleaning it first, and if no luck replace it...thats up to you. If you want to test it out of the car, I can tell you how to do that too.

As far as pushing the gas pedal while cranking, yes it will push more gas to the engine, but will allow at least some air to get in. More gas and some air will ignite mucho easier than some gas and no air...to ignite you need: gas, a spark, and some O2.

 

[n8rsk8r]

it could be that or even that your CPS is going out, mine did that for a while, I will think what about what curred it, it may be that your batt is low, or starter is going out, or.... I will try to think what solved my problem, really it was a new batt and new starter, I have been through 6 starters, I would replace it, and it would fire right up, then the next day start uar uar uar uar uar uar uarrrrrrrrrrr! So I am not sure, has your starter even "not" came on? if so, go get a new one.

 

[NiNeTy Fo SHO]

His tach is bouncing 200-400, so it *shouldnt* be the CPS. If the starter is trying to kick over the engine, then the battery should be fine. (If your battery is getting low/too low, you could still have interior lights, etc but the starter will not try to kick over due to a regulator or something). If the starter is cranking everytime he hits the key, then I wouldnt think the starter is bad, its cranking.

Just my 2 lincolns...

 

[SHOtimer]

What year is your SHO? This all just may be due to the fact that you haven't had a 60k yet. Plugs and wires can wear out over time not just miles. This can lead to a weak spark which can cause longer cranking times. I would do a 60k, (which will probably solve this problem) and then start diagnosing if it is still there.

Before you start diagnosing a problem with these cars you want to make sure the maintaince is all up to spec. Most of the time doing that maintaince will take care of the problem, SHO's are very greedy in wanting their maintaince on time...

Doug

 

[Snake2715]

Yeah its not the starter or battery it cranks good and hard. I am sure if I just let it go until it started on a cold start it would crank easily until it started.

Instead I either cycle the key or try to start it and let it crank 3-4 times then stop and try again. The second time it normally fires right up.

I do know that it is going to need the 60k. Only 1 plug well has oil and it’s not a lot. The car only has 54k. So I figured by next oil change I will do the whole tear down. I want to get used tot eh car before I go tearing into it.

I am really particular about my cars 1 thing different really bothers me.

Anyway I tried at lunch the gas pedal thing. It didn’t seem to make a difference. I ran to Home depot did some quick shopping and it cranked a few times until I hit he pedal and this time it made a difference...unless it was coincidence.

Anyway I am going to try the test in the morning. I printed out the info on how to clean the IAB and will do that at the 60k also.

I am really thinking it’s the regulator on the fuel pump... The guy before me changed the fuel filter and I am going to see if he put it on backwards.

I will give my info in the morning.

 

[Snake2715]

Ok,

After sitting the entire night I went out this morning. I didnt play around put the key in and immediately cranked it over and at the same time blipped the throttle.

It acted as if it wanted to start and almost would, I blipped the throttle again same thing. I held the throttle down and again it sounded like it was starting or almost there..

This all took place in myabe 4 seconds or so of time.

I let off the key and throttle, immdeiately cranked it over again and it fired right up....

 

[n8rsk8r]

There are a couple grounds that ground out at the starter and related components, maybe the last time I changed the starter, I was able to get a better ground, if you have oil build up, this could cause a problem with the starter. Yes mine did crank, turn off, hit it again then it would come on, it used to work when I pumped the gas, then that didn't work, that is why when I changed the starter the last time I made sure to get the grounds, and they were good and clean. Starts the first time now every time. Which year, and what is your transmission? atx or mtx?

 

[Snake2715]

1993 and the wonderful ATX!!

It doesnt leak any oil the thing only has 50k on it. I will climb under there and check the grounds though soon.

Does it NOT sound like the valve in the fuel pump?

I mean the starter is cranking every time. I would think if it was a gorund on the starter the starter would not crank.

I do appreciate the response though and look forward to hearing from you..

 

[91 SHOplus]

Start simple, and work your way up....

It may be the check valve in the pump. It's a simple test. Just turn the key to the "on" position without cranking it, for say 3-5 seconds. Now finish turning the key to crank it. It should fire up immediately.

Remember, Even though your car has very low mileage, it's still 11 years old.

 

[Snake2715]

I have this gut feeling its the check valve but again the plugs are probably original and I am not changing them for another few weeks, when I do the complete 60k service.

I ran to Auto Zone and had codes pulled:

543 Fuel Pump Seccondary circuit open. The car runs and from what I just searched I came up with this definition:

From the Ford manuals:

Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 543/524 indicates a fuel pump secondary circuit failure between the B(+) supply and the Fuel Pump Monitor (FPM) connection to the power-to-pump circuit.

Possible causes:
• No Starts:
• Open circuit between the B(+) supply and the FPM connection to the power-to-pump circuit.
• Fuel pump relay contacts always open.

• Engine Starts:
• Left/Front Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) short to power
• Damaged Powertrain Control Module (PCM).

** From what I read if it has stalled this code could present itself. (Which it might have stalled upon a startup, as I have been trying to figure why it cranks so long. One of those times it could have been technically "started" and stalled back out) it never has stalled while driving though.

Now my quesiton is since I am replacing the o2 sensors at the 60k is the left front the drivers, or passengers side? I am guessing its drivers but am not sure since it could be determined from inside or outside (in front of) the car...



Second code is:

336

So far I have found that I need to clean the egr tube inlet that leads to the block under the throttle body or replace the DPFE.

I have also found that maybe a temp sensor needs to be replaced due to it being in "warmup mode" all the time...

Any help on these codes??? which I am assuming might be linked tot he hard startups...

Thanks