Problems getting into gear

[Bizzy]

Updates?

 

[SonicRiot]

If the clutch or TOB hang up on the input shaft splines, there will be no shift and no grind.

 

[Sexymeatball]

its possible that the sleeve that the TOB rides on is riding up the input shaft and preventing the clutch from fully disengaging. This happened to me and produced similar symptoms.

 

[masho95]

Wow sorry for no updates for a while.

Drained out all the old fluid I could, and installed some new Royal Purple. Same issues are continuing to occur. Can't go from a stop right into any gear except 4th, and even then it's not as smooth as it should be, like when the car isn't running.
I've also noticed that when in neutral at a stop if I push the shifter towards first gear it won't go in, BUT if I slowly let the clutch pedal up, it won't go into gear and it DOESN'T grind at all. The clutch pedal can be fully released and it's like it's in neutral. Almost like there is something physically blocking the shifter from going into gear. I'm at a loss.... obviously it IS clutch related, since the car will smoothly go into any gear from neutral when the car isn't running.

If the clutch or TOB hang up on the input shaft splines, there will be no shift and no grind.

What would cause this? I mean the TOB ride on the quill sleeve and doesn't touch the input shaft spline, correct? I don't remember anything unusal from the installation. I left the quill sleeve alone since it was securely attached to the shaft.

One of my friends is Harley Davidson tech (no idea how it relates but I thought I'd share) and he suggested that the clutch disc wasn't perfectly aligned and could cause it to not fully release. I used the clutch alignment tool for whatever benefit that was... I centered the disc by hand anyways feeling along all the open edges of the PP to make sure it was even. Perhaps it did slide or the alignment was off to begin with, who knows, I thought it was even. I'm just bummed by this whole deal because I don't want to have to drop the tranny yet again, and this is my daily driver.

 

[Howdy_Doody]

You've never mentioned going into reverse, what happens?

I would assume that's impossible because their's no synchros to make that happen, but just want to ask the question to make sure.

Since your probably going to have to pull the clutch anyway, why not trying to burn the clutch in a bit? Just put it into 3rd or 4th gear, rev the engine a bit and let the clutch out. Don't go crazy with this. I had an old timer tell me this once and it has helped on some occasions when there are high spots on the clutch disc.

 

[Eric VerValin]

Just to add... take from it what you will. Mine still has the old fluid in the tranny, and my shifter is loose as ****. But mine is more tempermental than these I'm hearing about. It's like butter when it wants to, sometimes for days. When its hard to get into first, releasing the clutch pedal just a hair, and she pops right in. Sometimes it won't like 3rd to 2nd even.

So, for sure.. with bad fluid, and or a sloppy shifter.. thats what I'm getting. And when I can find the right extention to fit that stupid fill plug I'll change it. Just can't get torque on it where its at. Wish I had a small 3/8 impact.

 

[93rev2sev]

Wow sorry for no updates for a while.

Drained out all the old fluid I could, and installed some new Royal Purple. Same issues are continuing to occur. Can't go from a stop right into any gear except 4th, and even then it's not as smooth as it should be, like when the car isn't running.
I've also noticed that when in neutral at a stop if I push the shifter towards first gear it won't go in, BUT if I slowly let the clutch pedal up, it won't go into gear and it DOESN'T grind at all. The clutch pedal can be fully released and it's like it's in neutral. Almost like there is something physically blocking the shifter from going into gear. I'm at a loss.... obviously it IS clutch related, since the car will smoothly go into any gear from neutral when the car isn't running.



What would cause this? I mean the TOB ride on the quill sleeve and doesn't touch the input shaft spline, correct? I don't remember anything unusal from the installation. I left the quill sleeve alone since it was securely attached to the shaft.

One of my friends is Harley Davidson tech (no idea how it relates but I thought I'd share) and he suggested that the clutch disc wasn't perfectly aligned and could cause it to not fully release. I used the clutch alignment tool for whatever benefit that was... I centered the disc by hand anyways feeling along all the open edges of the PP to make sure it was even. Perhaps it did slide or the alignment was off to begin with, who knows, I thought it was even. I'm just bummed by this whole deal because I don't want to have to drop the tranny yet again, and this is my daily driver.

The input shaft is turning with the crank while the clutch pedal is depressed. Thats why you are locked out of gear. Conventional wisdom says that the clutch is not fully dis-engaging. This happens when the cable is too long. Take out the under carpet plastic-backed sound deadener. With that removed, you wil have another inch of pedal travel. Do this first as you will be wearing the shit out of your blocking rings on every shift if I'm right.

 

[masho95]

This happens when the cable is too long. Take out the under carpet plastic-backed sound deadener. With that removed, you wil have another inch of pedal travel. Do this first as you will be wearing the shit out of your blocking rings on every shift if I'm right.

Are you saying that the clutch cable got stectched out somehow when I replaced the clutch? And I should get that extra inch of pedal travel immediately?

As for getting into reverse, I can go from 4th gear then to reverse from a stop.

One more thing to add...when I'm already driving (not at a stop) I don't have any issues shifting from gear to gear. I don't think it's exactly as smooth as it should be, but I'm not jamming it from gear to gear to get it in. Would this relate in any way to my problem?

 

[Howdy_Doody]

Conventional wisdom says that the clutch is not fully dis-engaging. This happens when the cable is too long.

There are more reasons for a clutch not disengaging than a stretched cable. Before you go changing the cable, tell us this: is the clutch pedal solid from the very top, or is there free play before it gets solid. If there is free play, how much? More than 1/4" indicates the cable is out of adjustment, or possibly stretched.

If it is a solid pedal, you more likely have a clutch internal problem. Do a search for 'clutch' there is another owner having a problem with his clutch not releasing and what to check once you take it out.

 

[93rev2sev]

Are you saying that the clutch cable got stectched out somehow when I replaced the clutch? And I should get that extra inch of pedal travel immediately?

Or the fact that the new disk is fatter than the old one, and it will require more travel than your already streached out cable has.

As for getting into reverse, I can go from 4th gear then to reverse from a stop.

Because when you are in 4th, the tranny cant spin up fast enough to lock you out of reverse.

One more thing to add...when I'm already driving (not at a stop) I don't have any issues shifting from gear to gear. I don't think it's exactly as smooth as it should be, but I'm not jamming it from gear to gear to get it in. Would this relate in any way to my problem?

Because your blocking rings are stopping the tranny from freewheeling.


GET THAT PADDING OUT! It's like a 25 minute job...

 

[SonicRiot]

The clutch rides on the splines; the TOB rides on a sleeve. If the sleeve is worn (usually on top more than the bottom), it can give a really notchy pedal feel and the bearign will sometimes stick. If the slines are dirty or there is a burr on the clutch or shaft splines, the cuch can hang up as well.

Isn't the clutch cable a racheting mechanism for adjustment? I know on the 1st gens, pulling you pull up ont the clutch, slip it into gear, and slowly push the clutch, listening for clicks.

If the clutch wasn't aligned, you wouldn't have gotten the trans back in with much ease. If it's cocked, your PP probably wasn't torqued down correctly and is now *****'d.

Try adjusting the cable. If it's fine, pull out the trans. Better do it now while the repair is cheap instead of waiting until your trans needs a rebuild or you damage your engine's thrust bearing.

 

[masho95]

If the clutch wasn't aligned, you wouldn't have gotten the trans back in with much ease. If it's cocked, your PP probably wasn't torqued down correctly and is now *****'d.

Try adjusting the cable.

The tranny wasn't that hard to get back it, only slightly because trying to lift it up and align it yourself on your back isn't the easiest thing in the world to do. I know everything was torqued down correctly unless my torque wrench is out of whack. Same goes for all the bolts that require locktite, they all got their equal dose.

I've already tried adjusting the cable, it's both correctly tightened and working properly.




As far as removing the padding under the oedal to give it more room to push down on... I pulled up the carpet quick today to take a look and there isn't anything under it. Now padding, maybe gen I's only had it? This is a gen II keep in mind.

I think my problem lies somewhere in the TOB area, as the pedal was slightly "gritty/notchy" pre clutch job. It's smooth now but I wouldn't doubt the old TOB sleeve is worn in parts and having the TOB hang up. Guess I'm stuck in the boat of pulling the tranny apart again and taking a look at things..... thanks

 

[93rev2sev]

I have 2 Gen2 MTX SHOs. I can't beleive you don't have the same padding. It makes up the dead pedal and extends to underneath the clutch pedal. The upside is plastic, the floorboard side is thick padding. It might even extend to behind the parking brake assembly.

If it's not there, it's not there...but don't worry....

One other thing you can check is the tranny side of the clutch cable. Here's a pic from under the hood:


When you did your clutch and put that cable back between the tines in the clutch fork, how much extra were you able to pull out? Was it real easy to pull enough slack from the cable to put it back over the fork?

The EASIEST way to find out if your cable is streached is to temporarily shorten it and see if your problems go away.

Pull on the end of that cable and check to see how much room you can make between the fork and the detent on the cable. Find a nut that will barely fit in that space and cut a slot in the side of it the size of the cable end but smaller than the detent. This will take up most of the extra slack in the cable.

If this helps your issues, you DEFINATELY have a stretched cable. I certainly would not be pulling my trans until I KNEW the problem was not cable/pedal related.

 

[masho95]

When you did your clutch and put that cable back between the tines in the clutch fork, how much extra were you able to pull out? Was it real easy to pull enough slack from the cable to put it back over the fork?

The EASIEST way to find out if your cable is streached is to temporarily shorten it and see if your problems go away.

As far as the padding goes I'm not sure that would even help. With even the carpet in I fully pressed the clutch pedal and it stopped short of touching anything I believe. If anything the arm of the pedal would hit the "mound" in the floorboard to the left of the pedal before the pedal itself actually touched anything.

Anyways, I think I'll look into temporarily shortening the clutch cable as you described. When I disconnected the clutch cable during the tranny removal it was very easy to get the cable detent out of the fork. I would assume that would be the case because I had the self-adjuster mechanism released (clutch pedal propped all the way up).

Thanks SO much for all the replies and help so far, it's really appreciated!

 

[93rev2sev]

Well, it's only help if it....uhh....helps.

Hope so...G/L!

Let us know

 

[masho95]

Took a look at the clutch cable to see how much slack I could get out of it. You are talking about slack by just pulling on it? If that's the case then the cable wouldn't budge at all. It's completely tensioned up.

The other thing I noticed was that the clutch will release at the top of the pedal travel. I only have to push it down like 2 inches to be able to shift. So all the extra pedal travel to the floor should really make it release all the way then right?

Something isn't adding up and I can't put my finger on it...

 

[Eric VerValin]

I was messing around with mine, as it acts kind of similar, and the 'golden' spot for mine is just a little off the floor. Shifts like butter. But if it gets spun too high once, or dosent fall in, it wants to take its time getting back in sync. ? Dont know what that means, but maybe you all do ?

Does your quadrant click when you try to adjust it? I had to pull really ******* mine to get it to. just another thing I thought of.

 

[masho95]

After reading the other guys post about trouble getting into gears, I'm pretty convinced my trouble lies within the PP too. The clutch, PP, and a TOB all came in a kit from Southbend DXD. They had the PP case painted all red. It was a kinda sloppy paint job, but I wonder if they had the PP dissasembled to paint it.
Anyways, I've decided to get my old HD PP from ShoNut rebuilt. It's supposed to get new fingers and a grind to the friction surface, and then that's the PP that's going in the car. Might as well change out the quill sleeve while everything is apart. And I guess I go from there.

 

[SonicRiot]

I never understood why a PP needed to be painted.

 

[masho95]

I never understood why a PP needed to be painted.

Maybe for the OMG factor when you take it out of the box? Other than that you never see it when you are looking at the car. I think I've seen mine twice on the car. Once being installed and once being taken out.
Overall I think it's a complete waste of time and effort of the people that actually paint them. Maybe they could take some money of the price of the clutch instead of paying people to paint them??