Octane Type

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zyntax

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What are the major differences between putting in regular 87 and putting in higher octane like 91+?

I've noticed taht my car at idle fluxates rpms between 300-1500 up and down up and down, and stalls alot of the times, once it happened to me while i was clutching in and downshifting, lost powersteering...was a little scary.

Could that have to do with me putting in 87 all the time?

Thanks. :)
 

nc89sho

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the lower octane will just make the computer retard spark and you won't gett everything out of the engine.
 

projectSHO89

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What are the major differences between putting in regular 87 and putting in higher octane like 91+?
20 cents per gallon.

Most drivers would never know the difference. Neither would the car.

For most, premium unleaded is a tax on those who believe the marketing hype from the gasoline retailers.

Very few cars require or benefit from the use of premium fuel.

Your idle situation is due to a mechanical fault. Probably either a vacuum leak or a problem with the idle control bypass (IAB) valve (most likely).

Steve
 

3xSHOloser

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Octane is a measurement of the fuels ability to burn, i.e 91 burns at highter temps than 87. so octane has nothing to do with idle. also your computer does not know what kind of gas you put in your car, and it really does not care. The only difference you may notice by putting 87 in your car instead of 91+ is you might get a little pinging noise under heavy load or when ambient temps are high. so if you have 5 people in your car and you 87 octane you will most likely have a ping or if its 100 degrees outside. this ping could damage your motor if it goes on to long because it is a predetonation of the fuel meaning the the fuel explodes before the piston has finished its power stroke, impacting the piston while its still going up. so its important to listen to your motor and understand whats going on with it. my advice is go ahead and us 87 every other tank or every third tank and you will save a bid of money and your motor will remain in tip top shape.

P.S. never use racing fuel i.e. 103 octane, it will not burn correctly in the SHO motor unless you have a highly modifed motor.
 

94SHOMTX

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zyntax...once it happened to me while i was clutching in and downshifting, lost powersteering...was a little scary...
This happened to me on a windy road the other night, scared the crap out of me, almost lost control and would have gone into the woods. What causes this?

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: 94SHOMTX ]</small>
 

93EmeraldMTX

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3xSHOloser:
it is a predetonation of the fuel meaning the the fuel explodes before the piston has finished its power stroke, impacting the piston while its still going up.
dont you mean compression stroke wink
 

Blue

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ok first of all, the computer does know what kind of fuel your using, and it does care. everytime you start up your car your "detonation sensor" or ping sensor senses for a ping. it will advance the timing until it gets it, then cut back the timing a pre-determined amout, to ensure you have the max timing your octane will allow.

with 87 octane, you will most likeley, loose power, and throttle response. but it will not affect the motor.

if you have a car that does not require premium fuel, putting premium wont affect it, because you probobly wont have a detonation sensor.
 

olympic

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zyntax:
I've noticed taht my car at idle fluxates rpms between 300-1500 up and down up and down, and stalls alot of the times, once it happened to me while i was clutching in and downshifting, lost powersteering...was a little scary.
That sounds like a dirty IAB valve or a dirty or malfunctioning MAF. Try cleaning the IAB and use some TB cleaner to clean the filaments on the MAF.
 

rangerj

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If I can find the pictures I have, somewhere, of a piston with a hole blown in the top of it by detonation I will post them. Then we can talk about how low octain fuel will not hurt anything!

Yes, there is an anti-knocjk sensor, but it reacts after the fact. Usually you will get away with a little "pinging", but not always.

As long as you are going to drive your SHO like it is an ******, you should not have any problems with 87 octain fuel.

Please do not go out during rush hour, on Fri. nights, Sat. nights or Sun. afternoons. And please stay to the right when you do go out.
(tongue in cheek)

rangerj
 

Lance Cheney

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nc89sho:
the lower octane will just make the computer retard spark and you won't gett everything out of the engine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

twrsho replied: Note: This only effects the car at WOT while under load.

-------------------

Actually, just the opposite. The knock sensor is most effective at part throttle, and has the most adjustability. It also happens to have the most impact on fuel efficiency, since that's where the motor is running most of the time. The difference will likely NOT offset the cost, however.

As far as I can tell the EEC ignores the knock sensor at WOT.

Also, if you run without a knock sensor (been there, done that -- oops) there is enough advance built in that the engine WILL ping, even on 91 octane gas. Therefore, the computer has enough advance built in to take advantage of higher octane gasses.

Oh, and 100 octane gas isn't necessarily "slower to burn" [that's a sort of 'urban legend']. It's more detonation-proof, but that doesn't necessitate poorer burning. But 100 octane gas is hardly worth paying the $$$ for on a N/A SHO.

Of course, it should be pretty clear that using leaded gas in a SHO is a bad thing.

-Lance

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Lance Cheney ]</small>
 

shojuan

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Lance Cheney:
quote:
Also, if you run without a knock sensor (been there, done that -- oops) there is enough advance built in that the engine WILL ping, even on 91 octane gas. Therefore, the computer has enough advance built in to take advantage of higher octane gasses.

-Lance
Hmmm. So maybe my butt dyno was right when it sensed a bit less oomph when I got a tank of 87 a couple weeks ago (was ****** that my bargain premium went up a couple cents). I was beginning to think that I was just imagining things.

Rick
 

sdpatt

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twrsho:
nc89sho:
the lower octane will just make the computer retard spark and you won't gett everything out of the engine.
Note: This only effects the car at WOT while under load.
It will affect the timing any time the knock sensor detects a knock event. That can be full throttle or part throttle at any engine rpm or load.
 

shojuan

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sdpatt:
[/qb]
It will affect the timing any time the knock sensor detects a knock event. That can be full throttle or part throttle at any engine rpm or load.</strong>[/QUOTE]

I too have heard that at WOT a knock sensor can't distinguish between knock and engine noise so most EEC's are programmed to ignore them under those conditions.

Rick
 

twr

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From SHOtimes - this should clear any questions up.

From Gary Morrell:

Economics, personal style, and availability have a lot to do with this behaviour. The SHO is only part hot rod, the rest is conventional 4-door sedan, and that's how most of its buyer's use it. Folks like me who's SHO is modified to the point of barely being roadable are a tiny, tiny minority. I see plenty of SHO's with 2 baby seats strapped in the back, which would get in the way of the attachment points for my driver and passenger 5-point harnesses. ;-)

At high altitude, fuel runs from 85 to 91 octane, not the 87 to 93 that flatlander's are used to. The 20% thinner air reduces the engine's effective compression ratio so high octane fuels simply aren't useful.

If you look in the SHO owner's manual, on the dash, and on the gas door sticker, it says "Premium fuel recommended", not required. All Ford engines, regardless of the intended performance level, are calibrated on regular fuel (87 octane), not premium. The reason for this is to obtain a calibration that will give optimum driveability under a wide variety of environmental conditions and available fuels.

Because the Yamaha engine is not particularly octane-limited, meaning that the compression ratio is fairly reasonable and the engine can tolerate large amounts of spark advance, (which helps to make more power) the difference between 93 and 87 octane would probably mean an approximate 3% decrease in low RPM torque under adverse conditions: like a fully loaded car and 95degF ambient temperature. Remember, higher octane fuels do not produce any more power when burned; octane is a measure of a fuel's ability to resist premature ignition when subjected to heat and pressure. The higher the octane number, the less likely a fuel is to pre-ignite. High octane fuels allow engines to produce more power because they allow more spark advance before pre-ignition occurs. It is of no benefit to put 100 octane fuel into an engine that doesn't have the spark advance dynamic range to take advantage of it.

Under warm cruise (closed loop) strategy, EEC will push the spark advance out to the point where trace knock is detected, and then back the timing off slightly, to keep away from pre-ignition. This strategy makes sense to get the most efficient burn and the most power. Under these conditions, you may hear some knock if you mash the gas, because it takes EEC a few CPU machine cycles and crankshaft rotations to drop out of closed-loop strategy and retard the timing.

Under wide-open-throttle (WOT) conditions, EEC is not looking at the knock sensor because the engine is simply making too much noise for the knock detection strategy to filter out the knock signal from the noise. Timing and fuel for WOT is derived from lookup tables that are vectored primarily by crankshaft RPM and engine coolant temperature, and to a much lessor degree by the mass air signal.

Under most conditions, EEC should be able to get the most out of any reasonable fuel that you pump into the tank, however, an especially bad load might be beyond the range that the spark lookup tables can compensate for, so pulling the octane shorting bar invokes a new set of tables, with less aggressive spark advance curves for WOT operation.

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: twrsho ]</small>
 

shojuan

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I saw what you wrote before you edited that last one Terry. wink To be fair a lot of cars listen to the knock sensor at WOT. It seems like false knock is a real problem for some of those cars (Corvettes for example).

Rick
 

twr

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shojuan:
I saw what you wrote before you edited that last one Terry. wink To be fair a lot of cars listen to the knock sensor at WOT. It seems like false knock is a real problem for some of those cars (Corvettes for example).

Rick
I started to think about it after I wrote my reply and remembered that, although eec doesn't use the knock sensor at WOT. The eec does use it to adjust the tables for WOT. I should have remembered that from my conversations with Ted B. and Gary.

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: twrsho ]</small>
 

3xSHOloser

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Blue:
ok first of all, the computer does know what kind of fuel your using, and it does care. everytime you start up your car your "detonation sensor" or ping sensor senses for a ping. it will advance the timing until it gets it, then cut back the timing a pre-determined amout, to ensure you have the max timing your octane will allow.

with 87 octane, you will most likeley, loose power, and throttle response. but it will not affect the motor.

if you have a car that does not require premium fuel, putting premium wont affect it, because you probobly wont have a detonation sensor.
its called a knock sensor, the knock sensor just lisens for a knock and adjusts accordingly, nothing to due with octane. so no your car does not give a rats ass what type of fuel you put in it.
 

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