mattr66usa
Active Member
Those that have had a conversation with me about this know that I've always shot straight with everyone. But here are some of the things that needs to be addressed for those wanting more than just a "tune" car and start adding parts. There is a practical limit and a theoretical limit, so let's start and define those.
All years:
Chassis durability above 500-550 ft-lbs of torque (wheel) - This is simply that. On a full-weight car more than this really starts to take it's toll on the drive train. Eliminating the shifting torque reductions makes this even worse. We have seen lots of cv axles and other drivetrain parts deteriorate quickly. A decision has to be made by the owner whether they want to go past this point. Yes there are gains in 1/4 mile times with reducing\eliminating torque management, but at a cost of drivetrain longevity.
Torque Converter- It's a crapshoot and has a lot to do with mileage because the factory lockup strategy uses a lot of converter modulation that basically slips the converter constantly, adding to the wear and tear on the converter clutch. This is the single weakest link in the transmission because the converter needs lockup past 2nd gear at wot because the converter efficiency unlocked sucks at wot because of its physical size. There isn't a whole lot that can be done about the unlocked efficiency because the physical size of the converter doesn't allow for enough surface area to fully couple the amount of power that can be produced in these engines. The only way around this is to beef up the lockup portion of the converter to handle the extra power output. I would welcome a different converter shell design to get around this limitation, but I have been told by several converter shops that this just isn't possible. Someone please prove me wrong, because I would love to have some more efficiency unlocked.
Transmission - On a stock transmission, since shifting is where most of the slipping clutches happens, it has been my experience that 500WHP plus OR MINUS about 20 HP seems to be where the transmission start crying uncle. Hopefully the new clutches get to the market and move this ceiling up a good bit.
Practical RPM limit of the engine package - We have a fully mechanical valvetrain that has potential for 7000+ RPMs with the right build list (fuel pump plunger speed may limit this ultimately). Unfortunately, since we didn't get exhaust cam phasers on this platform, Ford made compromises to the valve timing to allow for decent bottom end torque. Right now, in order to make big power, you must either make big torque down low or try and completely remove any exhaust side restriction of the turbochargers that kills all the low-end torque because those high-flow turbines don't respond well.
We did some development on the gen 2 EcoBoost on a raptor and with cams we were able to make 100 more horsepower with very restrictive turbines and not lose any low-end torque. The reason this happens on a turbo engine is because with turbochargers, you have 1 or more pounds of exhaust drive pressure added for every pound of boost you add on the intake side. Past a certain point, an engine's natural VE curve starts to sign off the higher you go in rpms. Past that point, you must keep increasing boost to keep the power production alive, and the more boost you run the higher the backpressure penalty no matter how big the turbines are. If we had more intake duration and flow, we would be able to drop the boost requirements at higher rpms and make more power with turbines that also spool well and allow for a wide powerband.
Turbocharging is always a compromise, you either have a responsive turbo that chokes things off up top, or a laggy turbo system that breathes well up top but has poor response. The widest powerband comes from choosing the best compromise of natural VE of the engine package with the properly sized turbochargers. The response issue is also exacerbated because we can't phase the exhaust cams like we can on the trucks. This would help spool larger turbos greatly but it is pretty involved to swap a truck computer/harness/engine into this platform. It's awesome that folks are trying to push the limits with turbocharging that isn't in the stock location, but this is not practical for the folks that are driving on the street. The powerbands with big remote chargers will be very short (peaky) as well as the location of the catalytic converter changing (or being eliminated) prevents the aftermarket from making kits to do this because they have to abide by CARB rules to not fall under scrutiny with the EPA even if the parts aren't sold in California.
Most common upgrade paths (in order of best gains) (this does not encompass all possible mods):
Fuel Pump (HPFP) - This allows for max boost on stock chargers at sea level (the stock pump only allows for a 1.65 load max on E10 at a lambda of .82). The HPFP upgrade also allows for E30 fuel. This is the biggest gain even on stock chargers because it allows for max timing (MBT). This is typically a 40-50 HP gain all else equal over 93 E10 fuel. The pump also paves the way for bigger mods like turbo upgrades.
Intercooler - Stock or bigger chargers needs a bigger intercooler. Hot air is not good air density, this should be self-explanatory.
Methanol Injection - Especially effective without an intercooler and still pays dividends with an upgraded intercooler for octane, fuel source, and cooling benefits. (Depending on the desired level of dependency, this mod may move it up to a higher position in the list)
Downpipes - I personally run the catted PPE at 510 HP and have had no issues with check engine lights etc. Also, a tiny bit of backpressure helps the turbine seals on the turbos keep from weeping oil when the crankcase pressure is higher than atmospheric pressure (at WOT). At 400 whp (pump gas), this mod is about a 10-15HP or more gain depending on condition of factory cats. With turbos, downpipe flow becomes even more critical.
Turbos - A decision must be made on goals for the car. Turbos like the gen 3 were meant to get you to where the factory transmission was the limiting factor (with a beefier torque converter) without sacrificing response and drivability. If you are going beyond that point, you will need to look what else exists (I have not personally done any research at this time to render an opinion).
Fuel Pump (In-Tank) - I personally tested the first one of the DW pumps in a new ford bucket on my car when we were seeing pressure drops at the 500 WHP level on E30. This took care of the issue, but I have not tested above this power level and suspect that the filter in the bucket itself becomes a restriction at 500 WHP and therefore needs to be something different above this level.
Cold Air Intake - A drop in filter pays dividends, but if you are operating on the edge of the compressor map (at altitude or maxing stock turbos), a cold air intake actually helps over a drop-in. I like the Airaid/LMS design personally, but any intake system that has a good heat shield will help.
Posi-Trac Front Differential - If you are launching hard you know the struggle. Icing on the cake mod.
PTU Braces - Fairly new and unproven mod, but it can't hurt.......
10-12 Specific Issues:
So there are a few limitations that exist on the 10-12 computers.
Minor:
There is no LSPI mapping that was ever fully defined that allows boost scaling with inferred octane. This isn't a factor other than you can't have full auto-octane features like in the 13+ cars. Not a showstopper as most tuners can't make a full auto octane tune anyway.
Major:
Aftermarket HPFP delivery valve management - This is the computer's ability to control the HPFP's delivery valve that must be timed to the camshaft lobe. As of this writing, the parameters do not exist to get the full volume from the aftermarket fuel pumps above 5000 rpm on any tuning platform. I was actually working on getting this added in order to tune someone's car that has chosen to go to war with me for some reason after telling them this. Hopefully it gets added in the next few months for everyone's benefit.
Aftermarket Injector Solenoid Characterization - There are tables lacking to control aftermarket injectors to keep them from shutting off at WOT randomly above about 2400 psi. Until this issue is fixed, we can't get full flow from any of the aftermarket injectors safely. Some injectors are worse than others because of the way they get modified internally. I have a feeling that a lot of folks have had this issue but won't (or can't) talk about it.
I'm sure I missed something as I'm only on my first cup of coffee this morning.
Matt
All years:
Chassis durability above 500-550 ft-lbs of torque (wheel) - This is simply that. On a full-weight car more than this really starts to take it's toll on the drive train. Eliminating the shifting torque reductions makes this even worse. We have seen lots of cv axles and other drivetrain parts deteriorate quickly. A decision has to be made by the owner whether they want to go past this point. Yes there are gains in 1/4 mile times with reducing\eliminating torque management, but at a cost of drivetrain longevity.
Torque Converter- It's a crapshoot and has a lot to do with mileage because the factory lockup strategy uses a lot of converter modulation that basically slips the converter constantly, adding to the wear and tear on the converter clutch. This is the single weakest link in the transmission because the converter needs lockup past 2nd gear at wot because the converter efficiency unlocked sucks at wot because of its physical size. There isn't a whole lot that can be done about the unlocked efficiency because the physical size of the converter doesn't allow for enough surface area to fully couple the amount of power that can be produced in these engines. The only way around this is to beef up the lockup portion of the converter to handle the extra power output. I would welcome a different converter shell design to get around this limitation, but I have been told by several converter shops that this just isn't possible. Someone please prove me wrong, because I would love to have some more efficiency unlocked.
Transmission - On a stock transmission, since shifting is where most of the slipping clutches happens, it has been my experience that 500WHP plus OR MINUS about 20 HP seems to be where the transmission start crying uncle. Hopefully the new clutches get to the market and move this ceiling up a good bit.
Practical RPM limit of the engine package - We have a fully mechanical valvetrain that has potential for 7000+ RPMs with the right build list (fuel pump plunger speed may limit this ultimately). Unfortunately, since we didn't get exhaust cam phasers on this platform, Ford made compromises to the valve timing to allow for decent bottom end torque. Right now, in order to make big power, you must either make big torque down low or try and completely remove any exhaust side restriction of the turbochargers that kills all the low-end torque because those high-flow turbines don't respond well.
We did some development on the gen 2 EcoBoost on a raptor and with cams we were able to make 100 more horsepower with very restrictive turbines and not lose any low-end torque. The reason this happens on a turbo engine is because with turbochargers, you have 1 or more pounds of exhaust drive pressure added for every pound of boost you add on the intake side. Past a certain point, an engine's natural VE curve starts to sign off the higher you go in rpms. Past that point, you must keep increasing boost to keep the power production alive, and the more boost you run the higher the backpressure penalty no matter how big the turbines are. If we had more intake duration and flow, we would be able to drop the boost requirements at higher rpms and make more power with turbines that also spool well and allow for a wide powerband.
Turbocharging is always a compromise, you either have a responsive turbo that chokes things off up top, or a laggy turbo system that breathes well up top but has poor response. The widest powerband comes from choosing the best compromise of natural VE of the engine package with the properly sized turbochargers. The response issue is also exacerbated because we can't phase the exhaust cams like we can on the trucks. This would help spool larger turbos greatly but it is pretty involved to swap a truck computer/harness/engine into this platform. It's awesome that folks are trying to push the limits with turbocharging that isn't in the stock location, but this is not practical for the folks that are driving on the street. The powerbands with big remote chargers will be very short (peaky) as well as the location of the catalytic converter changing (or being eliminated) prevents the aftermarket from making kits to do this because they have to abide by CARB rules to not fall under scrutiny with the EPA even if the parts aren't sold in California.
Most common upgrade paths (in order of best gains) (this does not encompass all possible mods):
Fuel Pump (HPFP) - This allows for max boost on stock chargers at sea level (the stock pump only allows for a 1.65 load max on E10 at a lambda of .82). The HPFP upgrade also allows for E30 fuel. This is the biggest gain even on stock chargers because it allows for max timing (MBT). This is typically a 40-50 HP gain all else equal over 93 E10 fuel. The pump also paves the way for bigger mods like turbo upgrades.
Intercooler - Stock or bigger chargers needs a bigger intercooler. Hot air is not good air density, this should be self-explanatory.
Methanol Injection - Especially effective without an intercooler and still pays dividends with an upgraded intercooler for octane, fuel source, and cooling benefits. (Depending on the desired level of dependency, this mod may move it up to a higher position in the list)
Downpipes - I personally run the catted PPE at 510 HP and have had no issues with check engine lights etc. Also, a tiny bit of backpressure helps the turbine seals on the turbos keep from weeping oil when the crankcase pressure is higher than atmospheric pressure (at WOT). At 400 whp (pump gas), this mod is about a 10-15HP or more gain depending on condition of factory cats. With turbos, downpipe flow becomes even more critical.
Turbos - A decision must be made on goals for the car. Turbos like the gen 3 were meant to get you to where the factory transmission was the limiting factor (with a beefier torque converter) without sacrificing response and drivability. If you are going beyond that point, you will need to look what else exists (I have not personally done any research at this time to render an opinion).
Fuel Pump (In-Tank) - I personally tested the first one of the DW pumps in a new ford bucket on my car when we were seeing pressure drops at the 500 WHP level on E30. This took care of the issue, but I have not tested above this power level and suspect that the filter in the bucket itself becomes a restriction at 500 WHP and therefore needs to be something different above this level.
Cold Air Intake - A drop in filter pays dividends, but if you are operating on the edge of the compressor map (at altitude or maxing stock turbos), a cold air intake actually helps over a drop-in. I like the Airaid/LMS design personally, but any intake system that has a good heat shield will help.
Posi-Trac Front Differential - If you are launching hard you know the struggle. Icing on the cake mod.
PTU Braces - Fairly new and unproven mod, but it can't hurt.......
10-12 Specific Issues:
So there are a few limitations that exist on the 10-12 computers.
Minor:
There is no LSPI mapping that was ever fully defined that allows boost scaling with inferred octane. This isn't a factor other than you can't have full auto-octane features like in the 13+ cars. Not a showstopper as most tuners can't make a full auto octane tune anyway.
Major:
Aftermarket HPFP delivery valve management - This is the computer's ability to control the HPFP's delivery valve that must be timed to the camshaft lobe. As of this writing, the parameters do not exist to get the full volume from the aftermarket fuel pumps above 5000 rpm on any tuning platform. I was actually working on getting this added in order to tune someone's car that has chosen to go to war with me for some reason after telling them this. Hopefully it gets added in the next few months for everyone's benefit.
Aftermarket Injector Solenoid Characterization - There are tables lacking to control aftermarket injectors to keep them from shutting off at WOT randomly above about 2400 psi. Until this issue is fixed, we can't get full flow from any of the aftermarket injectors safely. Some injectors are worse than others because of the way they get modified internally. I have a feeling that a lot of folks have had this issue but won't (or can't) talk about it.
I'm sure I missed something as I'm only on my first cup of coffee this morning.
Matt
Last edited:
