New motor in and cranking over but will not start (video)

[92ShoOff]

Hello everybody! I recently got my new motor all wired up and all and have been trying to get it started for the past few days. It's cranking over great, but doesn't want to start. I'm not sure if the timing is off, so I'm providing a video of me cranking the motor over and hopefully some of you experts can tell by listening if my timing is off. I'm almost 100% positive that I had all the came gears in sync with each other, with the crank sprocket and with the belt.... but I guess there's always a possibility I may have messed something up.

Also, when dropping the motor in I snagged a cable harness that was attached to the firewall by mistake. I didn't realize that it became snagged on the motor mount bolt as I lowered the motor down. There were no obvious rips of the wiring nor the conduit at the time but I'm sure I could've done some damaged there. This car has also had a history of starting problems. Two times that I've taken the car to AAMCO they've had problems starting it to test drive it and end up fixing some wires going to the CCRM if I recall correctly. So based on what you guys hear in this video, does it sound like the timing may be off? Or does the timing sound fine and should I maybe point my finger to some of this wiring? And where can I start with testing this wiring and all that? I'm almost a dummy with electrical but I do have a 12v test light

Thanks in advance for your help!

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/04LS1GTO/1992%20Taurus%20SHO/?action=view&current=100_1798.flv

 

[CerberuS]

it REALLY looks like a crapped out fuel pump , pressure?

Bad timing , i donno , he seems to turn awefully well for a bad timed car.

 

[Endri_SHO]

yo man,

listen if you ripped your motor apart and put in a new timing belt and all parts, you might as weel wanna see the adjustment of the crank position sensor if its right at .30 if i recall it corectly, it sound like a cps to me , or if it is the fuel pump like cerberus said you wanna check whern you open your ognition before turning the car over listen on the back of your car if a whining noise is noticeable,, if yes then your pump is allright, you wanna do and check what i sugessted then

good luck bro

 

[92ShoOff]

Hey Celebrus, thanks for your continued help with this car. I really appreciate that man. And thanks for your advice too Endri. I did do almost EVERYTHING new on this motor and a new CPS was included. A bad CPS is what brought this car down last year when it last ran. That bad CPS was my excuse to drop in a 3.2 with new parts actually lol.

But yeah, I did gap the CPS correctly and again I'm almost positive I set all chain and belt sprockets correctly and lined them up perfectly so I almost wanna say that part should be eliminated hopefully as a reason. I'm not sure what the engine would sound like if the timing was off so I was kinda going for my dad's comment that it sounds like the timing may not have been set correctly based on how the engine sounded. It has slowly started sounded more and more like it wants to start, and you can also hear in that video how it made more progress in that clip I shot of it. It started cranking somewhat slower for the first few seconds and then started getting fast like it was wanting to start up. I don't recall when I shot that video if it start spinning fast because I started pushing the throttle down, or if I didn't touch the throttle pedal at all. But I have noticed now that it spins faster or sounds more like it WANTS to start when I pushed the gas pedal to the floor.

The fuel pump DOES kick on when I first turn the ignition to the ON position. It's pretty audible from inside the car but the audio just didn't catch it when I recorded it. And it is a newer fuel pump. It's a Walbro 190lb/hr pump that I put in that car approximately 2.5 years/15k miles ago.

As Celebrus probably read in my other post some days back in the "Emergency Issues" section I did pull an injector out of the manifold to change a new, leaking o-ring and fuel came running out of that manifold. So the manifold is now at least getting fuel to it. But just one day before I pulled the injector my dad opened the shrader valve on the driver's side of the fuel rail and nothing at all happened. I'm not sure if anything is supposed to happen when you do that but I thought maybe that might tell you guys something that I don't know.

The fuel rail was thoroughly cleaned before installation, and the fuel injectors were 47k mile 3.2 injectors, with all new seals. With that low of mileage I'd LIKE to assume that they all were functioning correctly but I never did test them. But the motor was pulled from a wrecked car that obviously ran so I just assumed they were just fine.

But without taking the intake manifold and fuel manifold back off is there any way to test if the injectors are working? Can I just give the injectors a 12v lead and listen if they're spraying or not? Or is there no audible function of a fuel injector? Thanks again you guys!!!!

-Andrew

 

[SuperHO]

prime the system 10 times....kick the key forward until the fuel pump stops humming and kick it off.....do that 10 times. Then, with the key kicked forward, get out, crawl under the hood, and using a pen/screwdriver/infants pinky finger, press the lil thing on the shrader valve down...fuel should spew outta there in a fairly healthy manner, as the SHO runs around 40psi on startup. If no fuel soaks your hood liner, then it's a fuel issue. If fuel does, check for spark using a timing light. You don't have to point it at the timing mark on the crankshaft, but you can if you want, just to check baseline timing. If you're getting spark in all the right spot, then get in, floor the accelerator and crank it over for a few....if it starts cranking really fast, then take your foot off the gas and try again.

If that don't work, I'm all outta ideas for the moment.

 

[ViPER1313]

Check spark and fuel - if you are getting both then check the timing.

 

[nc89sho]

just to metion it. the fuel injector wiring harness runns next to the motor in front of the fire wall. is this the wires you snagged?

 

[93rev2sev]

Bad cam timing sounds like...

Hard to say if it's not WAY off. Mine seemed like it was "freewheeling" after I got off the starter (no timing-stripped belt). I guess because there was no compression due to non valve closure.

Yours does not sound like this...check the coilpak connections. It sounds like it wants to start. You may have the wires out of sequence?

 

[92ShoOff]

Hey thanks for your replies fellas. Earlier today I did exactly what you said SuperHO. I primed the pump 10 times and when it pressed the needle in the schrader valve fuel just overflowed out a little. Not a whole lot at all, but some definitely came out. Are you sure it should have enough pressure to squirt out and spray the hood liner? If so I guess I do have a fuel problem but I can't imagine what. Again, it's a fairly new Walbro 190lb/hr pump, and 47k mile injectors, fuel rail/manifold and fittings. All was cleaned thoroughly before installed. I did get the fittings on the top side of the fuel manifold pretty tight with a crows foot since I couldn't get a torque wrench on everything. Maybe I over tightened those things, but would that cause any pressure issues or anything?????

Again is there any way to test to see if the injectors are working without taking the intake manifold and/or fuel rail off??

NC89SHO I'll take a picture of where the harness I snagged connects to the firewall tomorrow if I have a chance. If I recall it seemed like the other end lead to the passenger side fender but I'll have to check that again tomorrow. If it goes to the injectors then I may have ripped a wire(s) and a fuel injector or multiple injectors aren't firing. Does anyone know how to test that wiring? And does anyone know how I can test the CCRM to see if I have something wrong there (ie: ripped wire)?

I supposed if hook a 12v test light to the leads that go to the fuel injectors then I can test all 6 leads and see if they're giving power as I crank the motor, right??? I'll double check to see if I have the coil pack wired to the right plugs but I'm pretty sure I'm good there. But even though fuel didn't fly out of the shrader valve I don't think I have a pressure problem because I've never had fuel issues since I replaced the fuel pump over 2 years ago. Car always ran fine so I don't know why I'd suddenly have fuel pressure problems after the car has sat for the past year with a ziplock bag tied onto the fuel fittings coming from the firewall. But who knows. Thanks again for your help you all.

 

[92ShoOff]

Here's a picture of where the harness that I snagged while installating the motor is connected to the firewall (on the passenger's side). Does anyone know what harness connects here and what it supplies power to/where it goes? Thanks!

 

[nc89sho]

that is the main engine wiring harness. that is the point were it connects to the computer (computer is behing what you circled.) i would deff. at least take that off and make sure everything looks good on both ends of that plug.

 

[92ShoOff]

Oh so this is the main wiring harness that runs along the firewall over to the driver's side of the car and connects to the MAF and just about everything else on the driver's side?

If that harness is damaged I wonder what my luck is finding a replacement harness? Well I'm gonna try to check it out here soon and see what I can come up with!

 

[sho_sc]

Hey thanks for your replies fellas. ..... Car always ran fine so I don't know why I'd suddenly have fuel pressure problems after the car has sat for the past year with a ziplock bag tied onto the fuel fittings coming from the firewall. But who knows. Thanks again for your help you all.

Many, many reasons ... fuel itself with harden over time and cause the injectors not to spray fuel, the fuel tank can rust and stop up the fuel filter, etc...If it was mine, I would remove the MAF and spray just a little starter fluid into the TB. It should start if it is getting spark and is in time.


Of course you could have flooded the crap out of it and fouled out the plugs ...

 

[Rockledge]

You can try grounding the FP test pin on the EEC Test Connector under the hood to force the fuel pump to run.

 

[92ShoOff]

You can try grounding the FP test pin on the EEC Test Connector under the hood to force the fuel pump to run.

Okay and stupid question but what is the purpose of doing this, and do I do it while trying to crank over the car or what? If this is just to make sure the fuel pump is coming on I do know that it's coming on because I can hear it everytime I put the key to the ON position. If you could gimme a little more detail on this I'd greatly appreciate that man!

Many, many reasons ... fuel itself with harden over time and cause the injectors not to spray fuel, the fuel tank can rust and stop up the fuel filter, etc...If it was mine, I would remove the MAF and spray just a little starter fluid into the TB. It should start if it is getting spark and is in time.


Of course you could have flooded the crap out of it and fouled out the plugs ...

And I guess with the fuel just resting in my gas tank for nearly a year now it could have gone bad. We did spray starting fluid in the throttle body when initially trying to start it for the first time last week and it went KABOOM! Heard two knocks while starting it, and then a backfire. The backfire blew out my oil pan seals so there will be NO MORE STARTING FLUID lol. Now would spraying FUEL into the throttle body be okay?

The plugs have been checked and they don't smell like fuel, and they're not wet. But I do have the itake manifold back off now, so is it okay to try to crank the engine over without the intake on and watch to see if the injectors are spraying into the cylinders while someone else cranks the motor over?? Or is this a bad idea????? Thanks!

 

[93rev2sev]

We did spray starting fluid in the throttle body when initially trying to start it for the first time last week and it went KABOOM! Heard two knocks while starting it, and then a backfire. The backfire blew out my oil pan seals so there will be NO MORE STARTING FLUID lol. Now would spraying FUEL into the throttle body be okay?

YOUR CAR IS OUT OF TIME!!
DO NOT ATTEMPT TO START IT!!!
you will blow out more than an oilpan seal.

Check for top dead center on the compression stroke (sounds like you set top dead center on the exhaust stroke (360*off). There are 2 Top Dead Center Positions in a 4 stroke engine. Top dead center on the exhaust stroke and top dead center on the compression stroke.

Disconnect ignition module

There are 2 ways to check - this one is easier for you becasue you wont have to remove intake and valve cover.
Remove upper timing cover, crank engine with wrench on crank bolt until you line up the timing marks.
Take out number one plug,
Insert a rubber hose in spark plug hole so that its tight (thread it in with a little oil if you have to).

If you ARE 360* off you will be able to blow into the hose and feel very little resistance because the exhaust valves are open when they should be closed.

If you are timed correctly, all the valves will be closed and you will not be able to blow into the hose.

I used a short length of air compressor hose. If it was too small I wrapped it with electrical tape until it made a decent seal on the spark plug hole threads.
Edit (I just realized That you need a distributor to do this) someone help me.

 

[92ShoOff]

Edit (I just realized That you need a distributor to do this) someone help me.

So are you saying that you can only check it this way on a distributor type ignition system?? Or what did you mean when you made that edit?

It's probably just my ignorance but I thought that as long as the #1 piston was at TDC when you put the heads on then it was depending on how you set the cams to determine if that piston was at TDC compression or TDC exhaust. It shouldn't have anything to do at all with the pistons themselves as long as #1 was a TDC when the heads were put on, right?????

I brought my #1 piston up to TDC, set the heads on, then set the cams by first getting the two cams on each head in sync with the dots on the chain sprockets pointing straight up, lining up with the dots on the chain. I then set the two timing belt sprockets pointing straight up, lining up with the timing marks on the back timing plate and with the belt. If I did it this way I don't think there's any way to accidentally set the cams on the exhaust stroke versus the compression. But please do correct me if I'm wrong because I'm just telling you what I THINK and I'm not 100% sure about it. Thanks!!!!

 

[shobote]

..... sounds like the timing is around 180 degrees off if you blew the oil pan seals out. Just hope nothing else got damaged.

 

[sho_sc]

So are you saying that you can only check it this way on a distributor type ignition system?? Or what did you mean when you made that edit?

It's probably just my ignorance but I thought that as long as the #1 piston was at TDC when you put the heads on then it was depending on how you set the cams to determine if that piston was at TDC compression or TDC exhaust. It shouldn't have anything to do at all with the pistons themselves as long as #1 was a TDC when the heads were put on, right?????

I brought my #1 piston up to TDC, set the heads on, then set the cams by first getting the two cams on each head in sync with the dots on the chain sprockets pointing straight up, lining up with the dots on the chain. I then set the two timing belt sprockets pointing straight up, lining up with the timing marks on the back timing plate and with the belt. If I did it this way I don't think there's any way to accidentally set the cams on the exhaust stroke versus the compression. But please do correct me if I'm wrong because I'm just telling you what I THINK and I'm not 100% sure about it. Thanks!!!!

and what about the mark on the crank? and surely this wouldn't be something simple like firing order being off??

 

[Rockledge]

...what is the purpose of doing this, and do I do it while trying to crank over the car or what? If this is just to make sure the fuel pump is coming on I do know that it's coming on because I can hear it everytime I put the key to the ON position. If you could gimme a little more detail on this I'd greatly appreciate that man!

Yes, the purpose would be to make sure the pump is running all the time.

Keep in mind that when you first turn the key on the pump primes for 1-2 seconds and then shuts off until a valid PIP signal is sent to the PCM. There have been cases where the pump primes fine but then does not run after that.

In any case, ensuring proper timing is your priority at this time.