LMS 3 bar V11 93 bounces off rev limiter

[Majestic]

I've been generally pleased with the LMS tune "package" that I purchased a couple of years ago. I don't even know what version I have. I run a 91 octane tune from back then.

So, I have had the issue described in this thread a couple of times. It is disconcerting when it happens.

I've kind of lost my preference towards LMS. You have this issue, which I guess no other tuner does, nor do they recommend their OWN fuel pump, and then you have the knock-off catch can that they said you didn't need, until they started selling them. LOL.

Thinking I might try someone else this spring.

 

[tech10002]

Just wondering about the cars with low miles on them that have tunes on them knowing that the warranty’s can be voided if a tune is found, if and when u need a problem fixed. Wouldnt an aftermarket hpfp cause an issue right away with ford ? Or is it acceptable. The tune you can hide a ( lil) hee hee but I can’t change the fuel pump every time I go to the dealer no do I want too. If known I needed the pump I would have bought it when I bought the pkg from LMS. Never new that I needed it. May not have ordered anything then just saying. SHO confused !

Exactly why I have a problem with LMS. Their technical people know what’s going on. Problem is, you never get to talk to a technical person. You get a salesman with a high pressure pitch telling you how many thousands of cars they’ve done and they’ve never seen a problem. Blah, blah, blah. There’s no way they’ve never seen failures. That’s just the nature of modifying cars, and they do their customers a disservice by insinuating they will never have issues. Their tune drives the stock high pressure pump to within an inch of its life—almost 150% duty cycle. It can’t keep up. I am guessing it starts to cavitate and this really “safe rich mixture” they keep pushing ends up leaning out sporadically with the cavitated fuel mixture. Just look at the knock retard values in the logs posted. Mine ran 7-8 with LMS. It runs 1-2 with Gearhead. I’ll take .82 lambda with nearly non existent KR over .74 with all kinds of insipient knock. Also, if so many cars are having issues, they should be forthcoming that you may need a pump for their tunes to work with your car. I suspect the fuel pressure issues are not unique to certain cars but are in fact ubiquitous, and some users either don’t meet the temperature, load, whatever conditions to trigger the shuddering or they just don’t pay attention to it. You can watch YouTube videos of people driving SHOs with lms tunes, and the shuddering is evident in many. People are just so captivated with the power, they don’t notice. I know I was at first.

As far as the shifting issues, I’m not sure what they’re doing, but I haven’t had one missed shift with Gearhead. The traction control doesn’t make any difference, either. It just works.

I’m not knocking anyone specific at lms. They have a lot of really talented people working there and have brought many innovative products to the community. They just need a little more transparency in how they do business and need to be a little more open to customer input and not just blame everything but the tune for these issues.

 

[MHW100]

Am I reading the LMS response to mean that yes there is a problem that can be fixed with a pump but the shuddering or missed shifts are the result of a protection mechanism to prevent damage?

Also, why all of a sudden are the LMS tunes doing this? Historically they've had an excellent reputation .

 

[yaycandy]

I did some math and technically you dont need a high flow pump. The cfm of the injectors is lower then optimal for the pump. If you find higher flow injectors, with the stock pump. You can have more gas in the cylinder on demand than just with a high flow pump. Im an engineer its what i do everyday. Thats what confused me because a high flow pump on stock injectors really aint doing anything. Now upgrading both injectors and pump. Dang. She wont be thirsty no more

 

[yaycandy]

In my emails back and forth with anthony, he was very help full and never said anything about needing a high flow fuel pump when i asked why it hits limiter. He said it was supossed to get near the limiter but not hit it when in sport mode but some computers variations want to cut fuel near that rpm rather than shift. Just comes down to its a canned tuned and is close but needs data logging to get a few bugs worked out. I mean doing tunes on dyno is one thing but the road is different. Got air pressure working against tranny, not gunna expirence that on a dyno. Thats why data logging is needed after a dyno tune. Dyno tune will get it close but the outside road is not a roller inside.

 

[GHNorth]

I was hesitant to install a tune on my SHO because I didn't want to do data logs, and I was leery of LMS's arrogant attitude. But, after a couple years, I felt that LMS had earned their "arrogant" reputation, and I sprung for their V11 tune. I was very happy with it, until I experienced the 1-2 shift failure, and started reading more and more reports of similar issues by other owners.

LMS responses:
"The 1-2 shift is a completely different issue, that is either the tires spinning or you need to add some fluid and turn tc off"
"All of what we are saying has been validated by customers that have elected to upgrade their HPFP, How many people out there can say they have any issue with our HPFP tune? I have never seen that on this board or any others because it actually fixes the issues."

Sorry LMS, but you pushed the V11 tune a little too far, and seem to be blaming everything else for the problems now being experienced by your customers. I have no intention of paying $1600 more to play with your V11 tune. And I seriously doubt that adding a 1/2 quart of tranny fluid will fix my shift problems. There is no way I will take the time to turn off T/C every time I run to the grocery store. That is not an option on a non-PP SHO.

The tune has been removed, and I am comfortably running totally stock, until such time as you make a reliable, safe tune available to replace the current V11 tune (without adding anything new other than the 3 bar MAF.)

You need to go back to the drawing board and restore the confidence that you worked so hard to attain in years past.

 

[StealBlueSho]

Just wondering about the cars with low miles on them that have tunes on them knowing that the warranty’s can be voided if a tune is found, if and when u need a problem fixed. Wouldnt an aftermarket hpfp cause an issue right away with ford ? Or is it acceptable. The tune you can hide a ( lil) hee hee but I can’t change the fuel pump every time I go to the dealer no do I want too. If known I needed the pump I would have bought it when I bought the pkg from LMS. Never new that I needed it. May not have ordered anything then just saying. SHO confused !

The HPFP takes 5 minutes to swap out. Throw the stock tune on with the stock 2bar... total process should take less than 30 minutes.

 

[StealBlueSho]

I did some math and technically you dont need a high flow pump. The cfm of the injectors is lower then optimal for the pump. If you find higher flow injectors, with the stock pump. You can have more gas in the cylinder on demand than just with a high flow pump. Im an engineer its what i do everyday. Thats what confused me because a high flow pump on stock injectors really aint doing anything. Now upgrading both injectors and pump. Dang. She wont be thirsty no more

The HPFP is mechanically driven by a lobe in the cam... the lower the RPMs the less fuel you have available...

 

[yaycandy]

Fords plug in system can read cpu data and kam data and will know if it was tuned or not. It even gives a date of when stock tune was put into system. They see a stock file uploaded any time after the car was made then its a voided warrenty. Just really depends on the shop and who is looking at it. Most dealer mechanics know a tuned file is safer then the stock file but when it comes down to engine damage they will say it was the tune file to save ford money. I literally live across the street from ford and know many mechanics in there and even know the owner personally. There plug in system is amazing. Will literally tell you everything about the engine, cpu changes, past readings and all

 

[yaycandy]

The HPFP is mechanically driven by a lobe in the cam... the lower the RPMs the less fuel you have available...

Yea dont gotta tell me man. Flow rate of the injectors is the weak point. High flow fuel pump literally does nothing more with stock injectors. I got 3 engineering degrees that beg to differ. If anything the high flow fuel pump can keep fuel injectors max flow more constant. And thats exactly what it does. Does not add any more fuel. I have all the ecoboost’s engineering files on my computer from the airforce’s shared drive

 

[yaycandy]

Government knows all

 

[yaycandy]

The HPFP is mechanically driven by a lobe in the cam... the lower the RPMs the less fuel you have available...

Not new technology man. Fuel pumps been valvetrain/distributer driven since 1920s and beyond

 

[SHOdded]

Can you show your work on fuel consumption/requirements vs stock/upgraded equipment limits, Curtis? Would be very interested to see, as no one to my knowledge has openly posted such computations before. TIA.

 

[yaycandy]

Just like way back in the day with carbs, you put a higher flow fuel pump on. Not doing anything but keeping a constant pressure because flow is regulated by jets. Then they change the jets out to larger sizes. Fuel pump aint making the injectors flow any more because its still pressure regulated and injector flow is the same. Install more cfm injectors with a hpfp then it will flow more and be more effiecent and run safer. But thats how lms is, arrogant. I call about a tune for arp turbos. They do not tune for them. Call about prometh tune. They only tune for theirs, i understand that one because they are used to the one they install. Call about higher cfm injectors, they dont recommend, call about msd coils, they dont reccommend. Both with proven dyno results. Because they dont have issues with the stocks ones they dont reccommend upgrading. My car put 12 more whp with copper spark plugs then ford oems. But will only last 10k miles or so

 

[yaycandy]

Can you show your work on fuel consumption/requirements vs stock/upgraded equipment limits, Curtis? Would be very interested to see, as no one to my knowledge has openly posted such computations before. TIA.

Ill get a write up. I got a few to do on other things also. No clue why its hard to find info about these cars. Probably because people rather put useless parts on instead of getting a ford tech manual and reading up on how engine actually runs. Ecoboost aint new. Engines arnt new. Ignition is a big power maker. Better coils. Copper tips plugs. Higher flow fuel. All basic performance makers that people just forgot about.

 

[yaycandy]

My buddys sho ran a 10.8 1/4. No kidding. Over 500whp. Tuned by keiths pitstop in gettysburg pa. No meth. Stock turbos. Simple upgrades. Some wiring mods to cpu.

 

[yaycandy]

Added launch control. Awd launch then fwd down the strip. Switch. Our cars have electronic all wheel drive. Easily swap between awd and fwd on demand. Tuning places dont think like rednecks with their carbeurators think. Keith has a 8 second mustang gt. Nothing to big. Lots of cpu and basic engine mods and electrical mods

 

[SHOdded]

People will not buy cars if they need "regular" maintenance. So compromises are made. On the other side, you have to deal with govt regs. Got to pass the mandated warranty periods for emissions. CA is a lot stricter than most of the country in that respect. Internal combustion engines will always carry a price tag, just a matter of where you apportion the costs.

 

[yaycandy]

I think thats why chevy and dodge do supercharged cars. They can tune internal combustion to meet epa. Where with turbocharged you need to tune to allow more exhaust to push turbos harder. To therefore make more emissions.

 

[mattr66]

Personally, I think overly rich mixtures are just as much to blame as too lean in some cases. It is known that direct injection engines have carbon buildup issues in the combustion chamber.... So you have something that is putting extra carbon into the chamber compared to the stock design (higher performance levels while not leaning things out a little) and you can have major carbon buildup even sooner than you think. Add spark blowout (from too large a plug gap), and it is worse. Add a thermostat to the mix and it makes carbon buildup worse as well. So you have carbon built up, then get cylinder temperature up at wot, where does the carbon accumulate and cause problems now? Top ring gap. So now you get a cylinder that was on the tighter side of the factory tolerance, and boom, you just butted the top ring.... Bad things start to happen....