Land Speed Racer

[drmayf]

Hello all. My name is Larry Mayfield and I run a Sunbeam on the Bonneville Salt Flats. In 2010 my Sunbeam became the fastest Sunbeam on Planet Earth with a flying mile average over 204 and an exit speed of 210.7 mph. This year I am running an older 1962 highly modified 260 motor. Next year I am considering the use of a generation 1 SHO motor. That's why I am here. I know zero, zip, nada about these motors and would like to know more. Undoubtedly I will ask dumb questions, from ignorance, but hopefully I can get basic information from the forum. I would like to hear either via the forum or PM what the potential of the gen 1 motors is. 205 mph is my goal for this motor which is constrained to 3.014 L displacement. 200 mph on the salt in a normally aspirated condition is a tough nut with a 3 L motor. No power adders of any sort although I can use an inter cooler to chill the charge air. So, as I surf the forum for information, I would love to hear from any of you that have assembled serious gen 1 motors, performance parts availability, where parts can be found, etc. I wan to do the SHO community proud! As well as Sunbeam...

I am located in Pahrump, NV and I am an old guy, retired aerospace management from Boeing. I have engineering degrees and am a pretty fair fabricator and mechanic (you have to be if you own a Sunbeam race car, lol).

So, I would be pleased to hear from any and all of you regards my project and the ease or difficulty in making it happen...


Many thanks for listening!

Larry Mayfield
______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed

 

[Off Road SHO]

Welcome Larry. Hopefully Todd Cook or Ernie will see this thread and chime in. are you going to run carbs or FI? Are you allowed to modify the oiling system?

Tom

 

[kevinspann]

http://www.shonutperformance.com

High compression pistons and higher lift cams...how much RPM do you plan on turning, what wheel horsepower is needed to get you to your target speed? If you have the ability, a custom fabbed intake manifold may be better than using the factory design.

 

[Toolman]

Welcome Larry!

Why the interest in the SHO engine? Had you seen the LSR with the carved (ha! meant to spell "carbed") SHO engine before?
I'll echo the other post inquiring about HP targets. 255-265 whp is pretty straightforward, and not too expensive. But I'm sure you will be requiring a good deal more. To net much more gain past the above numbers will take some creativity, time and money.
Wishing you the best and looking forward to your build!

 

[luigisho]

What they said. Hp target? and what are your options in this displacement category? Have to compare the weight of the SHO motor to similar displacement/output options. They are dimensionally large as well. How much room do you have to work with?

 

[intimdatr]

I believe the power and such is do able but you will need to do some real investigation into the oiling system. At the RPMs with what i bet you will be running you are going to be cycling the full thing of oil like every 7 seconds at 7000rpm or something ridiculously fast. Youre going to need to find a way to either increase the oil capacity or make a way for it to return to the pan faster.

 

[drmayf]

Thanks for the reply! I prefer to use a mass air flow EFI system. It is the most familiar system to me. I use a Tweecer to tune with and Clint Garrity's BE software. I see from several replies below that oiling seems to be an issue and mostly from a lack of it returning to the sump. I will need to look at that. But, the motor can be modified. It just needs to remain below 3 liters in displacement. Everything else if on the table.

larry aka mayf

Many thanks for that

 

[drmayf]

Hi, thanks for the reply! Glad to see the link to performance stuff! I don't have the exact hp needs figured out right now but it is substantial. All motor and around 375 - 400 I would guess. It may not even be doable. Spe3d is north of 200 mph.

larry aka mayf

 

[drmayf]

Custom manifold is not out of the question, a used one even better, lol. Interest is that it is just plain cool. And there are not many motors I would consider. And it came in a FORD which I am partial to.

larry aka mayf

 

[drmayf]

Large motor is ok. Displacement must remain below 3 liters. Weight is immaterial in land speed racing on the salt. As mentioned hp needs are likely to be around 375 - 400.

Somebody did it because the current record is 200.xx mph with a 3 liter all motor car. I am hoping that the SHO can do it.

larry aka mayf

 

[drmayf]

I believe the power and such is do able but you will need to do some real investigation into the oiling system. At the RPMs with what i bet you will be running you are going to be cycling the full thing of oil like every 7 seconds at 7000rpm or something ridiculously fast. Youre going to need to find a way to either increase the oil capacity or make a way for it to return to the pan faster.

What is the oiling issue exactly? with a 2.50 rear gear and the tall B'ville tires I need around 6100 rpm to meet target speeds. I have different rear gears that I can increase the motor rpm if needed to get it done though. I have a set of 2.74 gears and 3.1 as well. Can the pan be made larger? Or is some kind of integral impediment. Would a dry sump system help?

larry aka mayf

 

[intimdatr]

The main issue is that at pretty much anything sustained above Id say 6500 rpm (someone feel free correct me) the oil pump will move more oil than the oil return galleries can return. And after awhile the pump will starve and spin rob bearings #5 damned quick.

I think some people in the St. Louis SHO crowd did some sort of modification to help with this however i have no idea what it was.


Also i noticed the new intake idea being said and i believe this will be a huge factor in making this possible IMO.

 

[Phoenix]

you need to check this thread : http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=104161

The name is Ernie groce

check this vid:
http://s46.photobucket.com/user/saltsho/media/All_the_coolers.jpg.html

All of us with heavily modded 3.2 wont get past the 270 whp even with big ass cams , porting and all.

I think ernie hit 311hp with his , with crank and block work. Hes in his 50s-60s and last time I spoke to him , his wife was really sick.

The engines will accept boost or spray without difficulty to a certain point if you want to go there.

 

[intimdatr]

I was looking for that thread and could not for the life of me find it.

 

[Off Road SHO]

I don't believe the oiling problem was from starving the oil pump, but more from starving downstream rod bearings. I think Todd Cook of the Pike's Peak Hillclimb fame did a modification that took freshly pumped oil around the back to the oiling channel so that the channel is fed from two directions.

Todd?... Calling Todd Cook...

Tom

 

[drmayf]

you need to check this thread : http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=104161

The name is Ernie groce

check this vid:
http://s46.photobucket.com/user/saltsho/media/All_the_coolers.jpg.html

All of us with heavily modded 3.2 wont get past the 270 whp even with big ass cams , porting and all.

I think ernie hit 311hp with his , with crank and block work. Hes in his 50s-60s and last time I spoke to him , his wife was really sick.

The engines will accept boost or spray without difficulty to a certain point if you want to go there.

I actually know Ernie. Is he still with us? Last I had heard he was ill himself. I'll check up on him. Thanks for reminding me!

larry aka mayf

 

[drmayf]

Gonna Move to a different forum.. Gen 1 Engines, etc..this was introductory in nature

Hello all. My name is Larry Mayfield and I run a Sunbeam on the Bonneville Salt Flats. In 2010 my Sunbeam became the fastest Sunbeam on Planet Earth with a flying mile average over 204 and an exit speed of 210.7 mph. This year I am running an older 1962 highly modified 260 motor. Next year I am considering the use of a generation 1 SHO motor. That's why I am here. I know zero, zip, nada about these motors and would like to know more. Undoubtedly I will ask dumb questions, from ignorance, but hopefully I can get basic information from the forum. I would like to hear either via the forum or PM what the potential of the gen 1 motors is. 205 mph is my goal for this motor which is constrained to 3.014 L displacement. 200 mph on the salt in a normally aspirated condition is a tough nut with a 3 L motor. No power adders of any sort although I can use an inter cooler to chill the charge air. So, as I surf the forum for information, I would love to hear from any of you that have assembled serious gen 1 motors, performance parts availability, where parts can be found, etc. I wan to do the SHO community proud! As well as Sunbeam...

I am located in Pahrump, NV and I am an old guy, retired aerospace management from Boeing. I have engineering degrees and am a pretty fair fabricator and mechanic (you have to be if you own a Sunbeam race car, lol).

So, I would be pleased to hear from any and all of you regards my project and the ease or difficulty in making it happen...


Many thanks for listening!

Larry Mayfield
______________________________
drmayf
Worlds Fastest Sunbeam, period.
204.913 mph flying mile
210.779 mph exit speed

I looked at Ernie's numbers and the dyno sheets he scanned and included in the last posting I saw from him (2010). Ernie was real, lol. His SHO went fast on the salt. Since that was a chassis dyno, if I put in his numbers on my spread sheet, I can do what I want to do and then some. Even including a 13% loss for trans, tires, etc. I do need some basic information for my dyno software and my Bonneville software though. For instance, what is the combustion chamber size? What are valve sizes? Cam lift for intake and exhaust. I will use these as baseline to modify on the computer to see effects of changes. As mentioned, I have not heard from Ernie is a few years.

Next post will be on the Gen 1 Engines, drivelines, etc forum...

many thanks see you there!

larry

 

[zach44102]

There has been few to really work on these motors. 400whp? That would be a very crazy number to see, but very possible. Just depends how deep your pockets are.

I myself am working on a 3.3. 13:1 compression.
A custom intake manifold will be in order for sure.
The stock sho intake im NA form seems to be a restriction after 300whp

 

[dohcsable]

Welcome Larry, while I don't really have answers for you, I am always thrilled to see what LSR guys can accomplish.

Keep up the good work. Paul

 

[Tachyon]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/vintage-speed/2169297
Look about half way down the page. Says something about a reworked 3.0 making 500 hp at 10,000 rpms. Also, it's Popular Mechanics so it must be true.