Knock controller?

[John at JandS]

Don't know if you guys have seen this.

Individual cylinder knock retard for Ford coil on plug and waste spark ignition.

I won't post links, but here are search clues:

google "vampire ignition"

Video of it working on a Ford Lightning:
google "knock controller demo".

 

[John at JandS]

Oh, I forgot to add that Vampire retards by extending the dwell time, so increased spark energy is a side benefit.

 

[warmonger]

i've seen similar things used on the zx2 boards,before and after dyno's with decent gains

 

[Sho Amo]

hmmm. kinda expensive

 

[HotRodKid]

hey, great job of trying to skirt the rules for advertising. you still managed to fail.

 

[Rubix]

hey, great job of trying to skirt the rules for advertising. you still managed to fail.

This above statement is highly true. I won't post the link but here is the search clue:

google "j&s electronics"

You'll find the J&s vampire.


I will say it seems like a good product.

 

[rubydist]

Oh, I forgot to add that Vampire retards by extending the dwell time, so increased spark energy is a side benefit.

I will counter that extending the dwell time has nothing to do with spark timing, nor is extending the dwell time a 'side benefit'.

 

[John at JandS]

Engarde!

Energy stored in the coil of an inductive ignition goes up with the square of the coil current (assuming the magnetic field is not saturated). E=1/2LIˆ2

Here's a video showing the Vampire retarding on the bench. I made the clip for someone that asked me to program "traction retard" in two stages, commanded by a box from moretraction.com.

The purpose of the clip was to demonstrate the re-advance rate, but it also shows how the Vampire retards by extending dwell.

The top trace is from a signal generator, which I call the "distributor signal", which is fed into a sequential ignition simulator to drive an eight channel Vampire.

The freq counter is displaying 2.42 msec, which is 6200 RPM for an eight cylinder.

http://picasaweb.google.com/JohnPiz...id=UywQXz9rpFMV0AQ7f1PjcQ#5396583168878499042

 

[gmorrell]

Extending dwell time is only beneficial if the OEM dwell time is insufficient to build up a fully saturated field in the coil. Any dwell time beyond saturation is just adding I*R heat to the coil primary and shortening it's life.

1. I see you're using the Bosch broadband knock sensor. Do you have a tunable bandpass filter in your knock electronics so I can find the actual engine knock frequency and tune the detection for this frequency?

2. How about gating knock detect with the crank position sensor? Can you do that? I'd only want to look for knock between 10º and 70º after top-dead-center, because that's the only time interval in the cylinder event where knock will occur. Any knock triggers outside this time interval are just noise and I'd like to ignore them. Can your box do this?

3. Does your system allow me to change the knock threshold sensitivity for changes in engine load, engine RPM, coolant temperature, etc?

The OEM knock hardware and strategy in the SHO EEC-IV does 1, 2, and 3, and quite well I might add. If your "Vampire ignition" can't do these things, then why on Earth would I want to use it?

Before you fire back with another Engarde!, you'd best search around a bit and figure out who I am, otherwise you may find yourself at a gun fight armed with a rusty old sword.

You came on here with a blatant advertisement disguised as an innocent thread, so before this train wreck gets locked, let's see if you can bring the tech Mr. J&S Electronics Advertiser.

 

[gmail]

agree with gary 100% the factory dwell is about as good as it gets for this setup.
the factory starts to charge dwell when the falling edge comes and fires at trigger rise, so what that comes down to is no matter what you set the dwell time to its gonna fire when the PIP sensor tells it to.

too much dwell and you will burn your coil out faster then you could imagine...
factory dwell time from the research i done is somewhere around 1.8 ms i could be off some but this is roughly what i have mine set to, battery comp is a factor and also bump start on a mtx is higher in order to run.

a TFI setup is about 8 ms and thats with a single coil and a distributor setup but increasing dwell in that setup would be a benefit if you change the factory coil.

what it comes down to is increase dwell above its peak just creates heat only no power is to be gained.

 

[Sho Amo]

did you know chuck norris has a step brother? his name is gary morrell.

and he says ****

 

[John at JandS]

rubydist now agrees that one can retard timing by extending dwell?

No need to reveal trade secret information. I wrote some very clever software.

The fact that it is installed and working on thousands of vehicles and a variety of platforms since it was first introduced in 1991 should speak for itself (see my testimonial page).

Did anyone watch the Lightning video? Imagine the power loss if all cylinders were ******** the same as cylinder #5.

Here is a recent post from another Lightning owner I should add to the testimonial page:
http://www.lightningrodder.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27074

As to your concern about coil heating, it's obviously not a problem, since many Mustangs and Lightnings have been running it for nearly two years at higher than intended boost levels with no spark blowout or damaged coils.

The pencil coils used on those vehicles requires about 1.5msec of dwell to achieve 6 amps. I tested a Borg warner coil (Pep Boys replacement) on my bench at a rep rate of 40msec, equivalent to 3000 RPM, with a dwell of 2.5msec. The extra 1.0msec dwell equates to 18° retard, resulting in a temperature rise of nine degrees after fifteen minutes. Most applications will never see more than 10° retard for a ten second burst, and only on some cylinders.

Off topic, anyone here shoot pool?

gmorrell: You might get a smile out of my pool gizmo:
http://jandssafeguard.com/PoolGizmo/Stroke-Alyzer.html

 

[rubydist]

One can do a lot of things a lot of stupid ways, including claiming to retard timing by extending dwell. Of course, if I started the coil charge ramp sooner, I could extend dwell without retarding timing, hence my statement is (still) true: "extending dwell time has nothing to do with spark timing."

Gary more completely pointed out that extending dwell time is only beneficial if the original ignition profile was unable to saturate the coil. Since I have yet to find anyone who has legit spark issues with a healthy oem ignition on the SHO engine, I also believe my other statement "nor is extending the dwell time a benefit" is accurate as well. (My understanding of the Ford DIS is that it will automatically adjust dwell time to ensure saturation of the coil and limit it there.)

Having done marketing & sales for the past decade, I know that you can get all kinds of wonderful testimonials regardless of whether there is any factual basis for them or not, so I really don't care about any testimonials you may have. The claim that its on thousands of vehicles is an interesting one - if its that wonderful, why haven't we heard of it prior to your cute manipulation of the 'no advertising' rules? And what basis do you have for your claim "with no spark blowout or damaged coils"? Just out of curiosity, where were you measuring the 9* of temperature rise - on the outside of the case?

I noticed with interest that you did not address any of Gary's questions.

 

[sho_sc]

Extending dwell time is only beneficial if the OEM dwell time is insufficient to build up a fully saturated field in the coil. Any dwell time beyond saturation is just adding I*R heat to the coil primary and shortening it's life.

1. I see you're using the Bosch broadband knock sensor. Do you have a tunable bandpass filter in your knock electronics so I can find the actual engine knock frequency and tune the detection for this frequency?

2. How about gating knock detect with the crank position sensor? Can you do that? I'd only want to look for knock between 10º and 70º after top-dead-center, because that's the only time interval in the cylinder event where knock will occur. Any knock triggers outside this time interval are just noise and I'd like to ignore them. Can your box do this?

3. Does your system allow me to change the knock threshold sensitivity for changes in engine load, engine RPM, coolant temperature, etc?

The OEM knock hardware and strategy in the SHO EEC-IV does 1, 2, and 3, and quite well I might add. If your "Vampire ignition" can't do these things, then why on Earth would I want to use it?

Before you fire back with another Engarde!, you'd best search around a bit and figure out who I am, otherwise you may find yourself at a gun fight armed with a rusty old sword.

You came on here with a blatant advertisement disguised as an innocent thread, so before this train wreck gets locked, let's see if you can bring the tech Mr. J&S Electronics Advertiser.

:urock:

 

[John at JandS]

rubydist:

The video shows it retarding by extending dwell. Remember, the goal of the unit is knock retard, NOT dwell optimization.

As to damaged coils, I repeat, it's obviously not a problem, since many Mustangs and Lightnings have been running it for nearly two years at higher than intended boost levels with no spark blowout or damaged coils. People will naturally complain at the first hiccup after something new has been installed, even if it's unrelated. There have been no hiccups. Compare that to reports of failures of WeaponX and Granatelli coils.

Josh at ShoNut has an earlier three channel interceptor version. He bought it in '03, but says it's still on the shelf, never installed.

 

[ycode90]

.........................

 

[rubydist]

Remember, the goal of the unit is knock retard, NOT dwell optimization.

Josh at ShoNut has an earlier three channel interceptor version. He bought it in '03, but says it's still on the shelf, never installed.

I'd much rather use a Tweecer or a SCT to put the timing where I want it without screwing up the dwell. And I'd much rather use the Ford tuned knock sensor to adjust that if needed.

I think where Josh has the unit is the perfect place for it.

 

[HotRodKid]

Josh at ShoNut has an earlier three channel interceptor version. He bought it in '03, but says it's still on the shelf, never installed.

so your saying that, as proven by another members actions, The sho V^ does not require your lil gadget ?

if shonut hasnt bothered to install his, why should anyone else go out and buy one ?

anyone here already knows that you can make more power then a sho tranny can handle on STOCK pistons if you want, simply by doing a conservative tune in the timing department

so explain to me, why do i need your product on my 240sx project, and why would somedude need it on his shomaro project, considering we both now we can make almost 4x the stock wheel horsepower w/ a proper turbo setup alone ....

 

[Toolman]

why do i need your product on my 240sx project, and why would somedude need it on his shomaro project, considering we both now we can make almost 4x the stock wheel horsepower w/ a proper turbo setup alone ....

You guys keeping it conservative eh? You gotta step it up if want to be faster than my SHOspeed Project.

 

[HotRodKid]

is the shospeed getting forged slugs ?

im going w/ stock slugs in mine, and im going to keep pushing it farther and farther till it goes supernova. then ill swap in another stock block and turn teh boost down 2 pounds