autoteleology
Member
Minor update: the car runs on starting fluid. What now?
Crank, no start, oil lamp - multiple repairs fixes deep, not sure what's next
- Thread starter autoteleology
- Start date
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Texas Marauder
SHO Member
What is the fuel pressure?
Crank, no start, oil lamp - multiple repairs fixes deep, not sure what's next
2010 MKS EcoBoost, about 85K miles. Started having a lean condition with misfires, eventually died while at a self-service car wash. Here's what I've done so far to fix: - Replaced all spark plugs, ignition coils. - Replaced oil pressure sensor (got from Amazon, questionable if it was the...
shoforum.com
does the sho stay running once it starts, or quits shortly thereafter? what is the mileage on your sho? maybe the lpfp is indeed finally giving out. the fuel rail pressure sensor may be a culprit, but doesn't seem so at this time. and you already replaced the fpcm.
Gasoline Engines PCED
A10 CHECK THE FUEL PRESSURE
-
WARNING: THE FUEL SYSTEM REMAINS PRESSURIZED WHEN THE ENGINE IS NOT RUNNING. TO PREVENT INJURY OR FIRE, USE CAUTION WHEN WORKING ON THE FUEL SYSTEM.
REFER TO THE FUEL SYSTEM WARNING INFORMATION AT THE BEGINNING OF PINPOINT TEST HC.
FAILURE TO FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS MAY RESULT IN PERSONAL INJURY.
Note: While activating the fuel pump on an electronic returnless fuel system a brief pressure spike may occur. - Ignition OFF.
- Relieve the fuel pressure. Refer to the Workshop Manual Section 310-00, Fuel System for the Fuel System Pressure Release procedure.
- Connect the fuel pressure gauge using the appropriate fuel pressure test hose and adaptor.
- Ignition ON, engine OFF.
- Access the PCM and control the FP (MODE) PID.
- Activate the fuel pump to obtain maximum fuel pressure.
Is the fuel pressure within specification (refer to the fuel pressure chart in Pinpoint Test HC)?
A11 CHECK THE FUEL PRESSURE LEAKDOWN
- Ignition ON, engine OFF.
- Access the PCM and control the FP (MODE) PID.
- Activate the fuel pump to obtain maximum fuel pressure.
- Monitor the FRP.
- Verify the fuel pressure remains within 34 kPa (5 psi) of the maximum pressure for 1 minute after turning the pump off.
Does fuel pressure remain within 34 kPa (5 psi)?
| Yes | No |
|---|---|
| For F-150 3.5L, Flex 3.5L GTDI, MKS 3.5L, MKT 3.5L, and Taurus 3.5L GTDI, GO to A13 . For all others, GO to A12 . | GO to Pinpoint Test HC . |
Gasoline Engines PCED
A13 CHECK THE FUEL INJECTORS' ABILITY TO DELIVER FUEL
- Cycle the ignition several times to charge the fuel system.
- Disable the fuel pump.
- Monitor the fuel pressure gauge while cranking the engine for at least 5 seconds.
Is there a pressure drop greater than 34 kPa (5 psi) while cranking the engine?
| Yes | No |
|---|---|
| For F-150 3.5L, Flex 3.5L GTDI, MKS 3.5L, MKT 3.5L, and Taurus 3.5L GTDI, GO to Pinpoint Test DI . For all others, the electronic engine control (EEC) system is not the cause of the no start. RETURN to Section 3 , Symptom Charts for further direction. | GO to A14 . |
A14 CHECK FOR CORRECT PCM OPERATION
- Disconnect all the PCM connectors.
- Visually inspect for:
- pushed out pins
- corrosion
- Connect all the PCM connectors and make sure they seat correctly.
- Carry out the PCM self-test.
- Verify the concern is still present.
Is the concern still present?
| Yes | No |
|---|---|
| INSTALL a new PCM. REFER to Section 2, Flash Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory (EEPROM) , Programming the VID Block for a Replacement PCM. | The system is operating correctly at this time. The concern may have been caused by a loose or corroded connector. |
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autoteleology
Member
Back with some updates.
I saw this thread and given that their symptoms resembled mine a lot, I decided to check out my MAP sensors. Cleaned them out with mass airflow sensor cleaner fluid, made sure they were the right units in the right place by looking up model numbers - no improvement.
I can't seem to find FLP or FLP-DSD in my Forscan on Windows, only FRP and FRP-DSD. I did two start attempts during a data log, here are the results in the oscilloscope:
(note: I pumped the gas pedal during the second start as I noticed through experimentation in the data log that the throttle body opens even when the car isn't running. It also seems to help the engine catch every once in a while, but still never starts.)
Looking at the oscilloscope under FTP, as far as I can tell, the pressure reading for the fuel tank pressure sensor (0 to 0.1 kPa) makes no sense. How can it possibly be less than what the MAP and TCBP read (0.95 bar / 95 kPa), aka, the pressure of the atmosphere? Surely it's not under vacuum?
I saw this thread and given that their symptoms resembled mine a lot, I decided to check out my MAP sensors. Cleaned them out with mass airflow sensor cleaner fluid, made sure they were the right units in the right place by looking up model numbers - no improvement.
I can't seem to find FLP or FLP-DSD in my Forscan on Windows, only FRP and FRP-DSD. I did two start attempts during a data log, here are the results in the oscilloscope:
(note: I pumped the gas pedal during the second start as I noticed through experimentation in the data log that the throttle body opens even when the car isn't running. It also seems to help the engine catch every once in a while, but still never starts.)
Looking at the oscilloscope under FTP, as far as I can tell, the pressure reading for the fuel tank pressure sensor (0 to 0.1 kPa) makes no sense. How can it possibly be less than what the MAP and TCBP read (0.95 bar / 95 kPa), aka, the pressure of the atmosphere? Surely it's not under vacuum?
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Texas Marauder
SHO Member
Fuel pressure looks OK. Reading 841 to 1085 psi. 2010 may not have PID for low pressure fuel. My example was for 2016. Since it runs on starting fluid and you have fuel pressure, have you thought about bad or contaminated fuel?
autoteleology
Member
It's possible it sent the issue over the edge, but it's been running like shit for quite some time now (though it's never been driven with the new injectors, so who knows how much that was contributing to the general malaise of the car).
autoteleology
Member
Since I don't really see any other path forward at the moment, let's assume that I have bad gas.
The car's been sitting for long enough at this point, with a bottle of Iso-HEET in it (because I already thought there might be water in the tank before from the way it was behaving), that it's probably garbage anyways.
What should I do to clear out the half full tank of gas and, I assume, what's in the fuel lines? Would it be worth dropping the fuel tank to do all this, and then check the fuel tank pressure sensor / replace the low pressure fuel pump (since i've seen it described as a big weak link in the car performance-wise anyways, and a better part is a relatively simple and cheap replacement)? Or should I just try to siphon the fuel out and replace it with a couple gallons of fresh gas first?
The car's been sitting for long enough at this point, with a bottle of Iso-HEET in it (because I already thought there might be water in the tank before from the way it was behaving), that it's probably garbage anyways.
What should I do to clear out the half full tank of gas and, I assume, what's in the fuel lines? Would it be worth dropping the fuel tank to do all this, and then check the fuel tank pressure sensor / replace the low pressure fuel pump (since i've seen it described as a big weak link in the car performance-wise anyways, and a better part is a relatively simple and cheap replacement)? Or should I just try to siphon the fuel out and replace it with a couple gallons of fresh gas first?
we avoid iso-HEET, just doesnt work as well as HEET.
no need to drop the tank to get fuel out. you can try a couple of bottles of bg 44k to clean out the lpfp and fuel lines first if you like.
2011 Taurus Workshop Manual
Special Tool(s)
WARNING: Do not smoke, carry lighted tobacco or have an open flame of any type when working on or near any fuel-related component. Highly flammable mixtures are always present and may be ignited. Failure to follow these instructions may result in serious personal injury.
WARNING: Do not carry personal electronic devices such as cell phones, pagers or audio equipment of any type when working on or near any fuel-related component. Highly flammable mixtures are always present and may be ignited. Failure to follow these instructions may result in serious personal injury.
WARNING: When handling fuel, always observe fuel handling precautions and be prepared in the event of fuel spillage. Spilled fuel may be ignited by hot vehicle components or other ignition sources. Failure to follow these instructions may result in serious personal injury.
WARNING: Always disconnect the battery ground cable at the battery when working on an evaporative emission (EVAP) system or fuel-related component. Highly flammable mixtures are always present and may be ignited. Failure to follow these instructions may result in serious personal injury.
WARNING: Before working on or disconnecting any of the fuel tubes or fuel system components, relieve the fuel system pressure to prevent accidental spraying of fuel. Fuel in the fuel system remains under high pressure, even when the engine is not running. Failure to follow this instruction may result in serious personal injury.
no need to drop the tank to get fuel out. you can try a couple of bottles of bg 44k to clean out the lpfp and fuel lines first if you like.
2011 Taurus Workshop Manual
Fuel Tank Draining — Saddle Type
Special Tool(s)
| Fuel Storage Tanker 164-R3202 or equivalent | |
| Wrench, Fuel Tank Sender Unit 310-123 |
- Release the fuel system pressure. For additional information, refer to Fuel System Pressure Release in this section.
- Disconnect the battery ground cable. For additional information, refer to Section 414-01 .
- Remove the rear seat lower cushion. For additional information, refer to Section 501-10 .
- Remove the Fuel Pump (FP) module access cover.
- NOTE: Clean the FP module connections, couplings, ****** surfaces and the immediate surrounding area of any dirt or foreign material.
Disconnect the FP module electrical connector.
- Disconnect the fuel tank wiring harness electrical connector.
- Disconnect the Fuel Tank Pressure (FTP) sensor electrical connector.
- NOTE: Place absorbent toweling in the immediate surrounding area in case of fuel spillage.
Disconnect the fuel tank jumper tube-to- FP module quick connect coupling. For additional information, refer to Quick Connect Coupling in this section.
- Attach the Fuel Storage Tanker tube to the FP module outlet fitting and remove one fourth (approximately 5 gallons) of the fuel from a completely full tank, lowering the fuel level below the fuel level sensor ******.
- Remove the fuel level sensor access cover.
- NOTE: Clean the fuel level sensor connections, couplings, ****** surfaces and the immediate surrounding area of any dirt or foreign material.
Disconnect the fuel level sensor electrical connector.
- NOTE: Carefully install the Fuel Tank Sender Unit Wrench to avoid damaging the fuel level sensor when removing the lock ring.
NOTE: Place absorbent toweling in the immediate surrounding area in case of fuel spillage.
NOTE: Make sure to install a new fuel level sensor O-ring seal.
Install the Fuel Tank Sender Unit Wrench and remove the fuel level sensor lock ring.
- Position the fuel level sensor aside, insert the tube from the Fuel Storage Tanker into the fuel level sensor aperture and remove as much of the remaining fuel as possible from the fuel tank.
Unless your tank is full of water, bad gas will at least fire the engine. You have fuel, fuel pressure, and spark. The ECU tested good. It runs on starting fluid. You changed the injectors but ARE YOUR INJECTORS FIRING? You may have a bad injector ground. Maybe someone here can provide a schematic.
IIRC, the injectors may get power all the time (with ignition on) and the GRD (lo) comes from PCM for each injector, as necessary to activate. Maybe use DVM to check the common wires at the injectors for correct voltage?
If no power, then follow back to fuse/relay/harness/pcm? If present, check for lo pulse as engine is being cranked. Obviously noid light would help here, too. Agree, schematic would clarify all of this. Apologies for interrupting, I just like troubleshooting and got sucked in while reading. Plenty of great advice here.
This may help too.
If no power, then follow back to fuse/relay/harness/pcm? If present, check for lo pulse as engine is being cranked. Obviously noid light would help here, too. Agree, schematic would clarify all of this. Apologies for interrupting, I just like troubleshooting and got sucked in while reading. Plenty of great advice here.
This may help too.
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Total WAG, but if the fuel rail pressure sensor were providing no signal to the PCM (or the PCM not reading the provided signal), would the PCM stop sending signals to the injectors? I believe that fuel rail pressure was already confirmed via Forscan, so this may be irrelevant. In which case, I would be looking for another PCM input that was resulting in the PCM not enabling fuel injector pulsing.
From the O-scope image posted, I see that FRP_v,v and FRP,PSI have identical signals. Likely because one generates the other. Specifically, that the voltage from the pressure sensor provides a virtual pressure readout. Should those signals be so erratic?
As the PCM has been out of the vehicle and all connectors removed, you should check C1381E (particulary pin 29) carefully and perform a reseat of that connector. Possibly C1586 as well.
Another thought, as these are all "replacement" injectors, maybe ohm out all 6 to see if one bad injector is dragging down the voltage from PCM to the others? The PCM should have adequate circuit isolation (diodes) to prevent this, but does it? They should all have appx equal resistance, (around 11-18 ohms, I believe).
Those with more direct knowledge of this system, please do not hesitate to offer corrections/clarifications to anything that I have posted.
From the O-scope image posted, I see that FRP_v,v and FRP,PSI have identical signals. Likely because one generates the other. Specifically, that the voltage from the pressure sensor provides a virtual pressure readout. Should those signals be so erratic?
As the PCM has been out of the vehicle and all connectors removed, you should check C1381E (particulary pin 29) carefully and perform a reseat of that connector. Possibly C1586 as well.
Another thought, as these are all "replacement" injectors, maybe ohm out all 6 to see if one bad injector is dragging down the voltage from PCM to the others? The PCM should have adequate circuit isolation (diodes) to prevent this, but does it? They should all have appx equal resistance, (around 11-18 ohms, I believe).
Those with more direct knowledge of this system, please do not hesitate to offer corrections/clarifications to anything that I have posted.
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autoteleology
Member
New update! Now with hot dealership drama!
So, at this point, having been eight months without having a car and just being tired of troubleshooting it myself, I threw in the towel and had it towed to my local Lincoln dealership for a diagnosis (without authorizing any repairs), and by God, the experience of dealing with them has been a complete nightmare.
First, they wanted me to authorize $600 worth of labor up front before they would even look at the car, to prepay for a day's worth of diagnostic work. To me, this seemed incredibly steep (my research online indicated that only high end car manufacturers like Ferrari or Aston Martin generally only ask for that much money), but hey, maybe this is a serious shop where I will finally be able to get this solved and it will be worth it.
(Ha ha ha. No. But I'm getting ahead of myself.)
Then, they flashed my PCM back to stock without asking me, when I had specifically informed them that the car was tuned with plugs and a 2.5 bar sensor, and then were mystified that they could no longer get a readout from the MAP sensor. They then demanded that I purchase a new stock MAP sensor from them so that they could continue the diagnostic process. I really didn't want to do this because it seemed like a complete waste of money, but fine. Sure. Whatever.
Days turn into weeks. A week turns into a month. I keep calling to ask if there's any news every two or three days, but they never have any useful information to tell me.
Finally, they get back to me this morning and tell me... we've determined that all six of your injectors are bad and that they all need replaced, that will be $2,900, please.
If you've read the OP and the thread, you will know that I've actually already replaced all six injectors with the Motorcraft OEM part (except directly from Bosch, instead of paying double the price for the Motorcraft version). I don't know about you, but personally, you're going to have an easier time convincing me that the moon is made out of cheese than that all six new, zero mile injectors in my car are faulty.
So, I tell the service manager, I want you to explain to me how your technician arrived at this conclusion because, frankly, I don't believe you, and you're asking me for a whole lot of money to replace new parts I just installed.
And their response?
No. We won't tell you. Also, pay us for the diagnostic, and get out, because we don't want to work with you and your car full of aftermarket parts (meaning, my Motorcraft 2.5 bar MAP sensor, and my Ford Racing M-12405-35T spark plugs, and nothing else).
I'm losing my mind right now.
So, at this point, having been eight months without having a car and just being tired of troubleshooting it myself, I threw in the towel and had it towed to my local Lincoln dealership for a diagnosis (without authorizing any repairs), and by God, the experience of dealing with them has been a complete nightmare.
First, they wanted me to authorize $600 worth of labor up front before they would even look at the car, to prepay for a day's worth of diagnostic work. To me, this seemed incredibly steep (my research online indicated that only high end car manufacturers like Ferrari or Aston Martin generally only ask for that much money), but hey, maybe this is a serious shop where I will finally be able to get this solved and it will be worth it.
(Ha ha ha. No. But I'm getting ahead of myself.)
Then, they flashed my PCM back to stock without asking me, when I had specifically informed them that the car was tuned with plugs and a 2.5 bar sensor, and then were mystified that they could no longer get a readout from the MAP sensor. They then demanded that I purchase a new stock MAP sensor from them so that they could continue the diagnostic process. I really didn't want to do this because it seemed like a complete waste of money, but fine. Sure. Whatever.
Days turn into weeks. A week turns into a month. I keep calling to ask if there's any news every two or three days, but they never have any useful information to tell me.
Finally, they get back to me this morning and tell me... we've determined that all six of your injectors are bad and that they all need replaced, that will be $2,900, please.
If you've read the OP and the thread, you will know that I've actually already replaced all six injectors with the Motorcraft OEM part (except directly from Bosch, instead of paying double the price for the Motorcraft version). I don't know about you, but personally, you're going to have an easier time convincing me that the moon is made out of cheese than that all six new, zero mile injectors in my car are faulty.
So, I tell the service manager, I want you to explain to me how your technician arrived at this conclusion because, frankly, I don't believe you, and you're asking me for a whole lot of money to replace new parts I just installed.
And their response?
No. We won't tell you. Also, pay us for the diagnostic, and get out, because we don't want to work with you and your car full of aftermarket parts (meaning, my Motorcraft 2.5 bar MAP sensor, and my Ford Racing M-12405-35T spark plugs, and nothing else).
I'm losing my mind right now.
independent shop - seriously
Yet another dealership story, sigh. Nothing changes. They concluded it was the injectors for a reason (likely using a noid light and checking fuel pressure, easy test) unless they were just outright lying. If it were me, I'd take the next step and put your old injectors back in before I spent another nickel. It only costs your time and at least you'll know whether the dealer was full of $hit.
bro you need to roll up a fat blunt fr
autoteleology
Member
I haven't actually paid them anything yet, and I absolutely will not unless I am forced to by a court because their conclusion is wrong beyond any reasonable doubt. The car wasn't running before or after we replaced the injectors, this isn't the issue. There is no way that I will believe that all six of the OEM injectors I put in the car are defective, especially when they refuse to explain how they arrived at their diagnosis and are so offended by my demand that they explain their science that they are firing me as a customer.
If you knew how many other serious problems I am dealing with at the same time as this, and how not having a car for eight months and counting has made all of those other problems so much worse, I hope you'd understand why I am so incredibly angry. I have an enormous amount of weight on my shoulders in this period of my life.
autoteleology
Member
For future thread readers, I solved the issue.
It turns out that I did, in fact, have a bad PCM, and the first Ford dealership I took it to was right all along. Once I replaced the core and reflashed it, everything has been working swell (though I still have a P0420 code I'm working on).
It turns out that I did, in fact, have a bad PCM, and the first Ford dealership I took it to was right all along. Once I replaced the core and reflashed it, everything has been working swell (though I still have a P0420 code I'm working on).
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