Tuning Technical Point #1 - What is MBT timing?

[802SHO]

You can’t answer bc you don’t have a legitimate acceptable technical explanation to explain your intentional decision not to explicitly tune for methanol as a fuel input. You keep saying I’m ‘scared of the truth,’ yet you’re the one refusing to plainly state what is actually being changed in the calibration and why. If the truth supported your position, it wouldn’t need to be guarded, delayed, or hidden behind deflection. Checkmate again.

 

[mattr66usa]

You can’t answer bc you don’t have a legitimate acceptable technical explanation to explain your intentional decision not to explicitly tune for methanol as a fuel input. You keep saying I’m ‘scared of the truth,’ yet you’re the one refusing to plainly state what is actually being changed in the calibration and why. If the truth supported your position, it wouldn’t need to be guarded, delayed, or hidden behind deflection. Checkmate again.

You can't read evidently. Let's talk facts. I've clearly stated it multiple times now how my tunes for methanol react when methanol hits the engine. Get in the technical thread 2 if you dare since you've already been proven exactly backwards here. Here is the link again..... https://shoforum.com/threads/tuning...ine-timing-vs-mbt-timing.147788/#post-1614744

 

[mattr66usa]

Matt, you’re asking for datalogs while also saying you won’t share datalogs or technical details unless I “prove I understand the basics.” That isn’t how a technical discussion works.

I’m not claiming I have logs that prove your tune does or doesn’t do anything. I’m claiming you still haven’t provided a technical explanation of what “the tune accommodates it” means in practice, specifically what is being changed and why, when methanol is introduced.

If you want to prove me wrong, identify one specific technical statement I’ve made that is incorrect, and explain why it’s incorrect. Otherwise this has turned into “trust me bro” plus personal attacks, and the conversation ends here.

So you are saying you have zero basis for all the claims you have made against me and my tuning method.... GOT IT!

 

[802SHO]

So you are saying you have zero basis for all the claims you have made against me and my tuning method.... GOT IT!

I’m not trying to have the last word. You can have it if you want — the conclusion doesn’t change.

I’ve accused you of not having a defined, intentional method for methanol tuning. If that were wrong, this would have ended weeks ago with a clear explanation of the method. I’ve been asking for that explanation since before Thanksgiving. It still hasn’t been provided.

What’s notable here is the silence. People are following this discussion. It’s not quiet because nobody cares — it’s quiet because many are waiting to see whether a method will finally be articulated. Multiple side threads and repeated assertions are easy for readers to recognize. Avoidance isn’t clarity, and speaking with authority isn’t the same as explaining a process.

For context, I’ve been in the EcoBoost community since 2019, owned my 2010 SHO since 2015, and have been running methanol since 2018. I don’t make posts without cause, and I don’t attack people for sport. My concern has always been correcting groupthink when it drifts away from sound engineering.

Customers deserve transparency. The community deserves honest technical discussion. No one should feel pressured to stay silent when questioning a method — disagreement isn’t retaliation, and authority doesn’t come from repetition.

Expertise isn’t about comfort level. It’s about being able to explain why something is done and how it’s handled when variables change. Those two things aren’t the same, and they never were.

I’m not following this into part two or part three. If a method exists, it can be stated plainly. If it can’t, repetition won’t substitute for it.

 

[mattr66usa]

I’m not trying to have the last word. You can have it if you want — the conclusion doesn’t change.

I’ve accused you of not having a defined, intentional method for methanol tuning. If that were wrong, this would have ended weeks ago with a clear explanation of the method. I’ve been asking for that explanation since before Thanksgiving. It still hasn’t been provided.

What’s notable here is the silence. People are following this discussion. It’s not quiet because nobody cares — it’s quiet because many are waiting to see whether a method will finally be articulated. Multiple side threads and repeated assertions are easy for readers to recognize. Avoidance isn’t clarity, and speaking with authority isn’t the same as explaining a process.

For context, I’ve been in the EcoBoost community since 2019, owned my 2010 SHO since 2015, and have been running methanol since 2018. I don’t make posts without cause, and I don’t attack people for sport. My concern has always been correcting groupthink when it drifts away from sound engineering.

Customers deserve transparency. The community deserves honest technical discussion. No one should feel pressured to stay silent when questioning a method — disagreement isn’t retaliation, and authority doesn’t come from repetition.

Expertise isn’t about comfort level. It’s about being able to explain why something is done and how it’s handled when variables change. Those two things aren’t the same, and they never were.

I’m not following this into part two or part three. If a method exists, it can be stated plainly. If it can’t, repetition won’t substitute for it.

Then you lose, I posted data with full explanation last night... buh bye! Glad you won't be coming over there to throw your nonsense against hard data. You have been the one this entire time with no data in the face of me explaining how the system works multiple times. You just don't have the aptitude to absorb it, so to you, it seems like the data wasn't posted when it was right in front of you the whole time.

 

[kryptto]

Matt gotta say a couple of pointed comments,;

on Dec 4th you pm me and say you will write a technical post explaining why your tuning for meth was not cooling only it was going to be all explained. its DEC 13th, where is the proof?

this was a peaceful place where many of us referred TONS of business your way... do us a favor stop being so helpful, you haven't proven a point you are a troll just waiting to get under 802's skin who for many years has been a helpful contributer.

I don't know you but you keep showing us your a troll. and keep saying here is my ankle, by now many of us waiting for the rest of the reveal, where is it?

if you have some ground breaking way you bend physics please post one post and explain the magic already.

802 - dude I get you now this guy is just a troll comes in sounds all authoratitive and always says things like no your wrong, more is coming... time goes by nothing.

Matt FFS post your magic method and move back to being a silent member. your profile post count only proves that 802 booted you for good reason on FB and to instigate him you came here.

well no more reecomendarions for you any longer from me, my guys at 5 star tuning / unleashed and others from now on.

please. go to where you came from obscurity on shoforum. most people have smartly just gave up on your presence at this point.

 

[mattr66usa]

Matt gotta say a couple of pointed comments,;

on Dec 4th you pm me and say you will write a technical post explaining why your tuning for meth was not cooling only it was going to be all explained. its DEC 13th, where is the proof?

this was a peaceful place where many of us referred TONS of business your way... do us a favor stop being so helpful, you haven't proven a point you are a troll just waiting to get under 802's skin who for many years has been a helpful contributer.

you I don't know you but you keep showing us you a troll. and keep saying here is my ankle, by now many of us waiting for the rest of the reveal, where is it?

if you have some ground breaking way you bend physics please post one post and explain the magic already.

802 - dude I get you now this guy is just a troll comes in sounds all authoratitive and always says things like no your wrong, more is coming... time goes by nothing.

Matt FFS post your magic method and move back to being a silent member. your profile post count only proves that 802 booted you for good reason on FB and to instigate him you came here.

well no more reecomendarions for you any longer from me, my guys at 5 star tuning / unleashed and others from now on.

please. go to where you came from obscurity on shoforum. most people have smartly just gave up I. your presence at this point.

Andrew came over here and did this first: Let's not forget that:

GH Tuning and 100% meth injection don’t mix.

Matt Robinson from GearHead Tuning keeps pushing this strange idea that methanol injection doesn’t need to be tuned for, or that it should only be used for cooling. It’s the kind of statement that sounds safe on the surface, but it defies basic physics and every practical reality of how meth...

shoforum.com

Who came at who first again? Have you missed all the times he started threads that I am damaging customer's cars here and on facebook? I think you have it wrong. And I posted the facts in the other threads:
Here:

Tuning Technical Point #2 Borderline Timing VS MBT Timing

Yes.. in the simplified case where all else is equal, methanol’s faster effective burn rate tends to move MBT toward less advance (closer to TDC). However, that trend only holds if exhaust backpressure, residual fraction, and effective VE are unchanged — which is not the case on stock-location...

shoforum.com

Then Here:

Reading A Datalog of a Methanol Injected SHO

Okay, here's a 11.7x run on a full weight SHO running methanol. Go ahead and pick this apart and ask questions.... There should be a lot of questions if you guys can figure out what you are looking at...... No questions are dumb questions, but let's take a deep dive into tuning that actually...

shoforum.com

 

[802SHO]

Then you lose, I posted data with full explanation last night... buh bye! Glad you won't be coming over there to throw your nonsense against hard data. You have been the one this entire time with no data in the face of me explaining how the system works multiple times. You just don't have the aptitude to absorb it, so to you, it seems like the data wasn't posted when it was right in front of you the whole time.

I didn’t lose anything. I declined to chase you through multiple threads while the original question remained unanswered.

From the beginning, the issue was simple and specific: whether there is a clearly articulated, intentional method for tuning methanol as added fuel mass. That question was asked directly and repeatedly. Instead of being answered, the discussion fragmented into side threads, data dumps, and declarations of victory elsewhere.

Gloating from another thread isn’t proof. It’s avoidance. If a method exists, it can be stated plainly here. If it can’t, jumping stages and declaring wins doesn’t change that.

What did come out of this is clarity. The platform has never been airflow-limited in the way it’s often presented. The real constraint is excessive drive pressure, and confusing that with engine limits has held progress back. Understanding that matters far more than forum posturing.

I gained a deeper, more accurate understanding by being willing to question assumptions and learn. So did others reading quietly. That’s not a loss.

You’re free to claim victory if you like. The conclusion is unchanged. If there’s a real explanation for your methanol tuning approach, state it. If not, repetition and venue changes don’t create one.

For my part, my future recommendations on turbo upgrades, intercoolers, and tuning will reflect that understanding. You’re not, and never were, the only option—and the platform is better off recognizing that.

 

[802SHO]

Andrew came over here and did this first: Let's not forget that:

GH Tuning and 100% meth injection don’t mix.

Matt Robinson from GearHead Tuning keeps pushing this strange idea that methanol injection doesn’t need to be tuned for, or that it should only be used for cooling. It’s the kind of statement that sounds safe on the surface, but it defies basic physics and every practical reality of how meth...

shoforum.com

Who came at who first again? Have you missed all the times he started threads that I am damaging customer's cars here and on facebook? I think you have it wrong. And I posted the facts in the other threads:
Here:

Tuning Technical Point #2 Borderline Timing VS MBT Timing

Yes.. in the simplified case where all else is equal, methanol’s faster effective burn rate tends to move MBT toward less advance (closer to TDC). However, that trend only holds if exhaust backpressure, residual fraction, and effective VE are unchanged — which is not the case on stock-location...

shoforum.com

Then Here:

Reading A Datalog of a Methanol Injected SHO

Okay, here's a 11.7x run on a full weight SHO running methanol. Go ahead and pick this apart and ask questions.... There should be a lot of questions if you guys can figure out what you are looking at...... No questions are dumb questions, but let's take a deep dive into tuning that actually...

shoforum.com

Since Keith has never run 100% meth, and the cited 11.7 pass is slower than his 11.1 best, the data does not demonstrate meth optimization. At most, it shows a car running a different setup with worse results — which raises questions, not conclusions.

Even setting the times aside, the explanation is still unaccounted for. Isolated log screenshots, selectively cropped and narrated after the fact, are not a substitute for a clearly defined tuning method. Without full-context data (configuration, fuel strategy, meth percentage, commanded vs delivered fuel, timing targets, and repeatability), those snapshots are not verifiable and therefore not trustworthy as proof.

Keith himself attributed the 11.7 pass to a boost leak when he shared it publicly. A run affected by a known mechanical fault cannot be used as validation of tuning strategy, fuel choice, or methanol methodology. Once a confounding variable like a boost leak is acknowledged, the data is disqualified from comparative analysis.

A run explained by a boost leak answers only one question: why it was slower — not how a tuning method works.

Please share the actual datalog file for independent review. Screenshots and narrated interpretations aren’t sufficient to evaluate configuration, context, or causality. The raw log is the only meaningful data.

 

[mattr66usa]

Since Keith has never run 100% meth, and the cited 11.7 pass is slower than his 11.1 best, the data does not demonstrate meth optimization. At most, it shows a car running a different setup with worse results — which raises questions, not conclusions.

Even setting the times aside, the explanation is still unaccounted for. Isolated log screenshots, selectively cropped and narrated after the fact, are not a substitute for a clearly defined tuning method. Without full-context data (configuration, fuel strategy, meth percentage, commanded vs delivered fuel, timing targets, and repeatability), those snapshots are not verifiable and therefore not trustworthy as proof.

Keith himself attributed the 11.7 pass to a boost leak when he shared it publicly. A run affected by a known mechanical fault cannot be used as validation of tuning strategy, fuel choice, or methanol methodology. Once a confounding variable like a boost leak is acknowledged, the data is disqualified from comparative analysis.

A run explained by a boost leak answers only one question: why it was slower — not how a tuning method works.

Please share the actual datalog file for independent review. Screenshots and narrated interpretations aren’t sufficient to evaluate configuration, context, or causality. The raw log is the only meaningful data.

That wasn't Keith's car that was referenced. It was a more recent customer and his datalog is listed for all to see and pick apart in its own thread. I just wanted a clean thread away from the BS fantasy stuff you have been spewing.

You came in into this forum after the Facebook discussion was shut down and caused me to have to defend the way I tune for methanol instead of taking care of customers' orders or reading datalogs. Your little misinformed tirade has cost me thousands in lost time and time away from my family as well. This is something that didn't have to happen this way but you chose to make unsubstantiated claims because of lack of understanding.

 

[802SHO]

That wasn't Keith's car that was referenced. It was a more recent customer and his datalog is listed for all to see and pick apart in its own thread. I just wanted a clean thread away from the BS fantasy stuff you have been spewing.

You came in into this forum after the Facebook discussion was shut down and caused me to have to defend the way I tune for methanol instead of taking care of customers' orders or reading datalogs. Your little misinformed tirade has cost me thousands in lost time and time away from my family as well. This is something that didn't have to happen this way but you chose to make unsubstantiated claims because of lack of understanding.

Let’s strip this down to what actually matters.

After weeks of discussion, multiple threads, and a lot of posturing, there is still one thing you have not done.

You have not explained your method.

Not once.

Instead, you’ve relied on screenshots, narration, and a single datalog tied to a vehicle whose configuration, fuel strategy, meth percentage, and tuning intent were never disclosed. And to be clear — even if this is a completely different customer’s car, it changes nothing. Data without context is not evidence. It’s just noise.

We are not arguing MBT theory. We agree on MBT fundamentals. That has never been in dispute. What has been in dispute — and remains unanswered — is how added methanol fuel mass is intentionally accounted for when meth is more than a trivial safety spray.

“The tune accommodates it” is not a method.

It’s a sentence.

If a real methodology exists — a defined process for managing methanol as fuel — then state it plainly. One post. Full context. No detours, no thread-hopping, no appeals to authority.

You’ve accused me of spewing nonsense, yet nothing you’ve posted has actually disproven anything I’ve said. Not once. What you’ve demonstrated instead is an impressive ability to avoid answering a direct question.

You’re not fooling anyone but yourself.

You’re welcome to have the last word. Just understand that without a clear explanation, repetition doesn’t become truth — and authority doesn’t become expertise.

 

[mattr66usa]

Let’s strip this down to what actually matters.

After weeks of discussion, multiple threads, and a lot of posturing, there is still one thing you have not done.

You have not explained your method.

Not once.

Instead, you’ve relied on screenshots, narration, and a single datalog tied to a vehicle whose configuration, fuel strategy, meth percentage, and tuning intent were never disclosed. And to be clear — even if this is a completely different customer’s car, it changes nothing. Data without context is not evidence. It’s just noise.

We are not arguing MBT theory. We agree on MBT fundamentals. That has never been in dispute. What has been in dispute — and remains unanswered — is how added methanol fuel mass is intentionally accounted for when meth is more than a trivial safety spray.

“The tune accommodates it” is not a method.

It’s a sentence.

If a real methodology exists — a defined process for managing methanol as fuel — then state it plainly. One post. Full context. No detours, no thread-hopping, no appeals to authority.

You’ve accused me of spewing nonsense, yet nothing you’ve posted has actually disproven anything I’ve said. Not once. What you’ve demonstrated instead is an impressive ability to avoid answering a direct question.

You’re not fooling anyone but yourself.

You’re welcome to have the last word. Just understand that without a clear explanation, repetition doesn’t become truth — and authority doesn’t become expertise.

I did here and now in the other threads where you can't give your fantasy statements. And yes my tune does account for it and I have now proven.

 

[802SHO]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, chief. Proof doesn’t stay locked out of the room we’re in.

 

[mattr66usa]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, chief. Proof doesn’t stay locked out of the room we’re in.

The problem is I've shown you the proof, but you don't understand what you are seeing. You have decided that you have to be right so everything else has to be wrong. That's the problem..... Chief!

There is multiple ways to skin this cat and my way of doing it has some very small drawbacks as well as many advantages that I clearly outlined in multiple threads now. I'm also not damaging engines like you accused me of and I've also outlined the facts about that aspect as well.

 

[Leapyfrog]

@Leapyfrog and @TheRedBeardedFury
In a speed-density strategy, what role do you think exhaust drive pressure plays in shifting VE and MBT as RPM increases?

Exhaust drive pressure is quite important. A good example of what you’re saying is found in a LegitStreetCars video, at 21:46 he explains how a larger compressor wheel is the main contributing factor to the increase in power (aka. less back pressure, freer flowing). He also mentions that the stock housing and the new turbo housing are identical. If you want to see for yourself:

 

[mattr66usa]

Exhaust drive pressure is quite important. A good example of what you’re saying is found in a LegitStreetCars video, at 21:46 he explains how a larger compressor wheel is the main contributing factor to the increase in power (aka. less back pressure, freer flowing). He also mentions that the stock housing and the new turbo housing are identical. If you want to see for yourself:

Yep, the factory exhaust housing is a restriction above 500 WHP on E30. It isn't the inlet of the exhaust housing that is the problem, look up the definition of turbo AR. Even with a bigger turbine wheel (exhaust wheel) you are actually making the AR smaller which hurts top end. The GH turbos have bigger wheels on both ends unlike some of the others out there for less money, but you can only go so far with the factory housing. I even experimented with some extrude honed housings and they only picked up 10 HP.

Also, it might be a surprise to some in here but the exhaust backpressure is modeled in the calibration where the VE is changed because of more or less backpressure and a few of us out there can actually correct for the flawed factory model past about 400 WHP on some vehicles where it goes wonky and gets out of hand and make it match reality. I was saving this for another topic, but like I said in another thread, The Calibration Takes Care of It. See below:

 

[802SHO]

Exhaust drive pressure is quite important. A good example of what you’re saying is found in a LegitStreetCars video, at 21:46 he explains how a larger compressor wheel is the main contributing factor to the increase in power (aka. less back pressure, freer flowing). He also mentions that the stock housing and the new turbo housing are identical. If you want to see for yourself:

Do your research please before coming here. Bro science isn’t science.

Thanks for the clip—this is one of those ‘walks in to prove a point, trips, proves the opposite’ moments. Bigger compressor, same turbine housing = more mass through the same exhaust side. Backpressure doesn’t go down, it stacks up. The power bump is compressor efficiency, not a suddenly enlightened turbine.

And the funniest part? The video doesn’t show 500 doing 500. It shows a setup that talks 500 and parks itself around ~450 because the exhaust side hits the wall and says ‘that’s enough.’ So quite the contrary—what’s being revealed here isn’t a freer-flowing system, it’s a ceiling.

Selling 500 on a combo that can’t clear 450 is like advertising a six-figure salary and paying in exposure. Same housing, same choke, different brochure.

The disappointment is the takeaway bc Matt sells dreams not results.

 

[mattr66usa]

Do your research please before coming here. Bro science isn’t science.

Thanks for the clip—this is one of those ‘walks in to prove a point, trips, proves the opposite’ moments. Bigger compressor, same turbine housing = more mass through the same exhaust side. Backpressure doesn’t go down, it stacks up. The power bump is compressor efficiency, not a suddenly enlightened turbine.

And the funniest part? The video doesn’t show 500 doing 500. It shows a setup that talks 500 and parks itself around ~450 because the exhaust side hits the wall and says ‘that’s enough.’ So quite the contrary—what’s being revealed here isn’t a freer-flowing system, it’s a ceiling.

Selling 500 on a combo that can’t clear 450 is like advertising a six-figure salary and paying in exposure. Same housing, same choke, different brochure.

The disappointment is the takeaway bc Matt sells dreams not results.

Different cars tune different. He made that on a base file you goofball. The wastegates needed to be adjusted to not close the throttle... but but but OMG, GH doesn't do custom tunes right? You've always spewed that stupidity too.

 

[DadMobile]

Matt gotta say a couple of pointed comments,;

on Dec 4th you pm me and say you will write a technical post explaining why your tuning for meth was not cooling only it was going to be all explained. its DEC 13th, where is the proof?

this was a peaceful place where many of us referred TONS of business your way... do us a favor stop being so helpful, you haven't proven a point you are a troll just waiting to get under 802's skin who for many years has been a helpful contributer.

I don't know you but you keep showing us your a troll. and keep saying here is my ankle, by now many of us waiting for the rest of the reveal, where is it?

if you have some ground breaking way you bend physics please post one post and explain the magic already.

802 - dude I get you now this guy is just a troll comes in sounds all authoratitive and always says things like no your wrong, more is coming... time goes by nothing.

Matt FFS post your magic method and move back to being a silent member. your profile post count only proves that 802 booted you for good reason on FB and to instigate him you came here.

well no more reecomendarions for you any longer from me, my guys at 5 star tuning / unleashed and others from now on.

please. go to where you came from obscurity on shoforum. most people have smartly just gave up on your presence at this point.

802SHO booted anybody that disagreed with him. I have the dms to prove it, he booted me too.

Don’t worry Krypto, I passively drive more business into GHT than you can you ever drive away! All I do is post my results with GHT. After all, my car with meth and a GH tune ran faster than Andrew with meth and Brads tune. It’s also been tuned for 5 years, no mechanical problems even when meth ***** up thanks to how the car is tuned.

The only troll here is the guy using ChatGPT to try and argue points he doesn't comprehend.

 

[802SHO]

802SHO booted anybody that disagreed with him. I have the dms to prove it, he booted me too.

Don’t worry Krypto, I passively drive more business into GHT than you can you ever drive away! All I do is post my results with GHT. After all, my car with meth and a GH tune ran faster than Andrew with meth and Brads tune. It’s also been tuned for 5 years, no mechanical problems even when meth ***** up thanks to how the car is tuned.

The only troll here is the guy using ChatGPT to try and argue points he doesn't comprehend.

The F are you talking about? You’ve never ran faster than me in your entire life and you’ve never beat Jordan‘s time.

You as well as others were actually incapable of debating the physics and technical scope and resorted to personal attacks. That’s what ppl do when they have no angle. Of course I’m going to boot people like that, and you, especially in the group Jordan and I created. Just like you twisted Jordan and I’s inside joke to fake beef with each other on FB…that’s an inside joke from like 4 years ago and never happened. I honestly don’t remember if you were on a 3 way call with us.

You’re so sad man. Trying so desperately to be relevant. Using ChatGPT is what smart people do. They use the best tools at their disposal. It’s common sense for anyone who’s actually ran 100% meth like I have to know any tuner who knows their head from their ass tunes for methonal. That’s not something I came up with it’s a fact! And it’s not new.

ChatGPT just helps articulate the words to debate Matt and his impressive ability to dodge answering direct questions. You and I, and Matt know he doesn’t tune for meth. He at least admitted it last year.

The thread wasn’t for me I already knew the truth back in 2018. The thread is for the forum to wake up from Matt’s BS narrative about the platform and its limits. The thread was for current and potential customers to learn the truth and pressure him for transparency. You can be the poster boy for GHTuning. Doesn’t change real physics and real science about what all the limits really are and how everything really works.

So scream into the void for all I care, seriously. You’re a day late and dollar short as usual. There’s nothing impressive about your car either. Except the wheels bc they used to be mine, lmfao.

I’m just getting warmed up with awakening threads so buckle up Chief cuz you’re about to go for a ride deep into denial with Matt at the helm, denying the very classes he was mandated to take in college.