93 MTX - Cranks,but no start...

[boat]

Kinda long.... Looking for some help here..I may have more than one issue here, but not certain.

I recently purchased up Bubba's 93 MTX, after some evaluation, I found I have a cranks, but no start condition.

Bubba was having issues with it for a long time, where it was running and seemed like it was down on power, RPM's would dip to 500 RPM. He said if you could get it above 2-3k RPM, it would run fine. Many, many mornings of continuous cranking before it would finally start. The last time he drove it, it just died on him and wouldn't restart.

Tow truck dropped it off at the garage last night. I had it running, for 5 seconds. Could not duplicate it again. It cranks, it sounds like it wants to start, but obviously its not.

First, I thought it was a bad fuel pump, added some gas b/c it was bone dry, checked the fuel pressure at the rail and it is good with about 37-38 psi while cranking, and about 30 after cranking.

Then checked my codes, KOEO
114 - ICT - Not sure what these codes pertain to, from memory, nothing.
116 - ECT
519 - Power Steering switch position didn't change, formerly a vaps car, has a non-vaps rack.

No other codes, not sure that the codes I got, mean anything in relation to the current condition.

The car had an Accel coil pack, that has been replaced, - no change.
Found some of the plug wires were not seated correctly in the coil pack, but some ports of the coil pack looked a little melted, couple of the plug wires were a little corroded on the coil pack ends. In this condition, I would think that the car would at least run, but not very good.

Replaced the cam sensor with a 21k mile one, old one was pretty oily, but no change.

Swapped out the DIS with a known good one, but again, no change.

As far as I know, when we picked up the car, every other area of the car had been re-worked with a lot of the best parts that could be bought for the car. However, the motor has not seen much of any maintenance. Plugs and wires were done on the car about 5k before Bubba got it.

Some next steps, I am thinking of changing plugs and wires to see if that makes a difference.

At this point, since I have codes I have, that don't tell me much on this issue, I am kind of stabbing in the dark here.

It was suggested to me to try swapping the PCM and/or the CCRM. But I am now suspecting the crank sensor, if I go that far its 60k time.

Any one have any ideas?

 

[rubydist]

114 says the intake air sensor is out of range. I have never seen a SHO motor run properly when this code is present, but never seen one not start from it.
116 isn't on my list of codes....
519 is not relevant to this issue as you pointed out.

now that it is not starting, you need to confirm if it has spark or fuel. that information is required before you know how to proceed.

 

[jayro]

You verified fuel. What about spark? If the CPS is bad, you wont have spark. Have you pulled any plugs and looked at them? Start with the simple stuff (spark and fuel) and work from there. Doesn't that car have a different MAF too?

 

[Noobz347]

You verified fuel. What about spark? If the CPS is bad, you wont have spark. Have you pulled any plugs and looked at them? Start with the simple stuff (spark and fuel) and work from there. Doesn't that car have a different MAF too?

When you had the fuel pressure gauge on installed, did you notice any cavitation when you relived pressure prior to removing it from the rail?

Another way to say it... were there bubbles in the line when you hit the button to relive pressure before removing the fuel gauge?

 

[bubba]

I did, I changed it back to the 55 maf! It helped for like 20 mins or so... And went back to the same thing... You could lay into the car....and it wouldn't get out of the way, then it would go, the next gear change would be the same! I was at a loss on this thing and still am.

You verified fuel. What about spark? If the CPS is bad, you wont have spark. Have you pulled any plugs and looked at them? Start with the simple stuff (spark and fuel) and work from there. Doesn't that car have a different MAF too?

 

[jayro]

I did, I changed it back to the 55 maf! It helped for like 20 mins or so... And went back to the same thing... You could lay into the car....and it wouldn't get out of the way, then it would go, the next gear change would be the same! I was at a loss on this thing and still am.

So it ran better cold, but when it warmed up it was terrible? Did you try it with the MAF unplugged? Are you sure the plug wells are dry?

 

[bubba]

That's about right, I'm not sure, I never checked them

 

[rubydist]

guys, verifying fuel pressure is not verifying fuel in the cylinders. there is an important difference and he needs to know if the fuel is getting into the cylinders.

 

[boat]

Whether its in a list or not, I got it.

114 says the intake air sensor is out of range. I have never seen a SHO motor run properly when this code is present, but never seen one not start from it.
116 isn't on my list of codes....
519 is not relevant to this issue as you pointed out.

now that it is not starting, you need to confirm if it has spark or fuel. that information is required before you know how to proceed.

Working on it:

Some next steps, I am thinking of changing plugs and wires to see if that makes a difference.

You verified fuel. What about spark? If the CPS is bad, you wont have spark. Have you pulled any plugs and looked at them? Start with the simple stuff (spark and fuel) and work from there. Doesn't that car have a different MAF too?

No air bubbles, I pushed the plunger and all gas came out of the gauge.

When you had the fuel pressure gauge on installed, did you notice any cavitation when you relived pressure prior to removing it from the rail?

Another way to say it... were there bubbles in the line when you hit the button to relive pressure before removing the fuel gauge?

I know I have fuel, b/c I could smell it in the air after trying to start it, as well as when I pulled off the end tank to change the cam sensor, I could smell fuel.

How else would I know if I am getting fuel to the cylinders?

guys, verifying fuel pressure is not verifying fuel in the cylinders. there is an important difference and he needs to know if the fuel is getting into the cylinders.

 

[rubydist]

if you are getting fuel, the plugs will be wet. sounds like you have fuel in the cylinders.

now you need to confirm if you have spark. you can pull off one of the plug boots and have some one crank the engine - you should hear spark snap. if not, pull a plug and insert it into the plug wire boot, then ground the base of the plug on the frame or a bolt head. wear leather gloves so you don't get zapped! have someone crank the engine - you should see and hear spark.

 

[Noobz347]

I had fuel in my cylinders and similar symptoms to what you have (minus the codes). What a didn't have was car that would run well after the engine bay was heat soaked.

I stood there scratching my head for a couple weeks until I did the fuel pressure check and saw all the bubble drain out of the relief line.

The pump was pumping but was also bypassing internally and picking up a load of air. It filled the rest of the fuel system with air. I replaced the Airtex that was in the tank with a OEM Bosh replacement.

In my instance, it's been right as rain since then.

 

[boat]

Found the problem...

Okay, it was suggested in my rod bearing thread that I may have crank cancer. Good call, SuperHO. The timing belt tensioner spring broke or somehow came loose, and the result, the timing sprocket looks to have been moving around. Key and keyway still look good, at least to what I can see having pulled that stuff off. Its a good thing this car quit running, as I think it would have caused a lot more damage if it had continued.

I think the timing belt tensioner and the crank sensor have seen much better days. Never have I seen a rusty crank sensor. Water pump leaking on it for a long time, thus killing it about the time the timing belt tensioner spring broke.

I think the timing pulley is shot, looks like it has been riding around the crank. Thank goodness for spares.

The sliver on the teeth of the timing belt is from the washer that goes over the timing sprocket and belt. That belt was trying to work itself off.

This washer isn't supposed to be polished.

At this point, it looks to be save-able. Less work and money than building a 3.2, but it will still be enough work to last a little while.

 

[TimboSHO]

Good find Mike! Looking good!

 

[boat]

Upon further inspection (thanks, PitaSHO) I found that in the second pic, on the left side of the key, that is extra space in the timing sprocket, it shouldn't be there. I wasn't entirely sure while I took those earlier pics, but now I know it really has been riding around on the crank. By the looks of things, looks like someone pulled off the timing covers to paint them and when they put them back and put the crank pulley back on, they didn't properly torque down the crank bolt. B/c, with one trigger pull on the impact the crank bolt came off and out, like "right now". No fighting, it wasn't tight.

I got to the point of trying to get the timing belt sprocket off and my puller kept turning and not staying straight. The sprocket seems to be on there pretty tight, so, I don't think the crank is ruined. I

Going to have to get some longer straight bolts.

 

[TimboSHO]

Going to have to get some longer straight bolts.

I'm pretty sure the longest ones from the timing cover work to get the timing pulley off.

 

[boat]

I have multiples of those, but they are not straight.

I'm pretty sure the longest ones from the timing cover work to get the timing pulley off.