Off Road SHO
Moderator
Zack,
Why is it that you don't want to run the stock SHO computer?
Tom
Why is it that you don't want to run the stock SHO computer?
Tom
SHO motor project, new to SHO motor.
- Thread starter Zach'sV6
- Start date
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I could, but the EEC-V is faster and apparently has greater flexibility than the EEC-IV. Also, making the conversion DIS to EDIS is simple and lets me avoid the crank sensor, which on my motor, would be exposed to the elements. Also, the EDIS updates the computer with crank position data ever 10deg vs. every 90deg for the DIS system: more precision.
The 3.8L programming can easily run the SHO motor since they both use the same injectors, MAF, throttle body, and about 99% of the rest of the sensors. It's not a question of being unwilling to, it's more of a fortuitous opportunity to keep my wiring harness in the car and just adapt it to the SHO motor. So far, I haven't found a single sensor on the SHO that is different from what is on the 3.8 except for the cam position sensor and soon-to-be-donated crank position sensor. All the EEC-V uses the CamPS for is injector sequence; pulse width being mathematically calculated by the computer based on airflow. As long as I can get a steady repeatable signal from the cam sensor, I'm in business.
Once in, the supposed protocol according to the tuners I've talked with is 1) KOEO test, then KOEO for 15 minutes, then start the car, leave it to idle for 15 minutes to "learn." At that point, I should be able to drive the car. It won't be running in peak tune, but it will run and drive. Then it's off to the dyno to have it properly tuned and calibrated for peak performance.
Apparently, the EEC-V's adaptive learning strategy is fairly powerful. Looking at it from the computer POV, it won't know that the motor is 3.0L vs. 3.8L as long as it is seeing the same expected voltage ranges from the sensors. Since the sensors are the same in most cases, the ranges being determined by the sensor, the computer should be able to compensate for the changes in expected values, though it may complain somewhat. What it will see is a reduction in total air flow through the engine, and probably not by all that much since hp/tq figures are similar. The redline will be lower but the firing order is the same and it uses the same ignition coil pack.
It also lets me use my stock gauges without hacking up the wires.
-Zach's V6
The 3.8L programming can easily run the SHO motor since they both use the same injectors, MAF, throttle body, and about 99% of the rest of the sensors. It's not a question of being unwilling to, it's more of a fortuitous opportunity to keep my wiring harness in the car and just adapt it to the SHO motor. So far, I haven't found a single sensor on the SHO that is different from what is on the 3.8 except for the cam position sensor and soon-to-be-donated crank position sensor. All the EEC-V uses the CamPS for is injector sequence; pulse width being mathematically calculated by the computer based on airflow. As long as I can get a steady repeatable signal from the cam sensor, I'm in business.
Once in, the supposed protocol according to the tuners I've talked with is 1) KOEO test, then KOEO for 15 minutes, then start the car, leave it to idle for 15 minutes to "learn." At that point, I should be able to drive the car. It won't be running in peak tune, but it will run and drive. Then it's off to the dyno to have it properly tuned and calibrated for peak performance.
Apparently, the EEC-V's adaptive learning strategy is fairly powerful. Looking at it from the computer POV, it won't know that the motor is 3.0L vs. 3.8L as long as it is seeing the same expected voltage ranges from the sensors. Since the sensors are the same in most cases, the ranges being determined by the sensor, the computer should be able to compensate for the changes in expected values, though it may complain somewhat. What it will see is a reduction in total air flow through the engine, and probably not by all that much since hp/tq figures are similar. The redline will be lower but the firing order is the same and it uses the same ignition coil pack.
It also lets me use my stock gauges without hacking up the wires.
-Zach's V6
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Off Road SHO
Moderator
Understood. Did you find a good trigger wheel yet and how and where were you going to mount it?
Tom
Tom
I'm just getting started on that part of it. It's going to mount on the back of the crank pulley and I may machine a small lip in there to make sure it's centered. I'll post pics once I get to that point.
Come to think of it, this hasn't been a picture filled thread. Guess I'd better get the camera out and get to photographing.
-Zach'sV6
Come to think of it, this hasn't been a picture filled thread. Guess I'd better get the camera out and get to photographing.
-Zach'sV6
Well, got some bad news.
I was having my heads reworked; valve job and seals, nothing major, just to prevent any blue smoke on start up.
On the rear journal of the left head (if facing the crank pulley) outboard cam there is some considerable bore damage and galling. Talking it over with the machinist, we agree that it was oil starvation caused by a fully or partially plugged up oil passage.
Strangely, the cam journal looks ok. Since this is my "proof of concept" motor and only needs to last me a relatively short time, I told the guy to just do what he could with the valves and guides, don't worry about decking them (they are off by 0.004") and I'll run with them for now.
SO...anyone seen this happen? The mains and rods looked great and so do the rest of the cam journals, but this one rear outboard journal is about a 5 on a scale of 10.
What I was going to do is lay a bunch of molybdenum disulphide powder in to that specific cam journal and hope for the best for a few thousand miles. The oil passage has been cleaned out and oil should fairly freely flow to that journal now.
Comments? Keep in mind, this isn't the performance motor that I have planned, this is the motor I am going to use to get back and forth to the grocery store and run errands with while I build the performance 3.2 motor. This will get the car on the road and allow me to make the custom parts I need to make the swap work and get major electronic bugs worked out.
I guess what I am asking is, do you guys think my cam is going to snap in half a few minutes after I start the car? Anyone seen this happen? What are the consequences of this kind of damage in this motor?
Thanks,
Zach'sV6
I was having my heads reworked; valve job and seals, nothing major, just to prevent any blue smoke on start up.
On the rear journal of the left head (if facing the crank pulley) outboard cam there is some considerable bore damage and galling. Talking it over with the machinist, we agree that it was oil starvation caused by a fully or partially plugged up oil passage.
Strangely, the cam journal looks ok. Since this is my "proof of concept" motor and only needs to last me a relatively short time, I told the guy to just do what he could with the valves and guides, don't worry about decking them (they are off by 0.004") and I'll run with them for now.
SO...anyone seen this happen? The mains and rods looked great and so do the rest of the cam journals, but this one rear outboard journal is about a 5 on a scale of 10.
What I was going to do is lay a bunch of molybdenum disulphide powder in to that specific cam journal and hope for the best for a few thousand miles. The oil passage has been cleaned out and oil should fairly freely flow to that journal now.
Comments? Keep in mind, this isn't the performance motor that I have planned, this is the motor I am going to use to get back and forth to the grocery store and run errands with while I build the performance 3.2 motor. This will get the car on the road and allow me to make the custom parts I need to make the swap work and get major electronic bugs worked out.
I guess what I am asking is, do you guys think my cam is going to snap in half a few minutes after I start the car? Anyone seen this happen? What are the consequences of this kind of damage in this motor?
Thanks,
Zach'sV6
jonheese
Used-To-Know-It-All
Unfortunately, "considerable bore damage and galling" is kind of a subjective description. Got any pics?
That said, any damage to the cam bore is a new one for me, although granted I'm not exactly a guru (yet). Before this, I've never heard of any sort of cam oiling issue or cam damage in a stock SHO V6, ever.
If the cam itself was undamaged after living in that damaged bore, I don't think there's any reason to believe that it would be damaged when it's put back and run that way, especially since you've made sure the oil passage is clear now. Was the oil passage there indeed plugged?
Worst-case scenario, if the cam does warp or break or something, you could just replace the head (or you could just replace it now). It's not uncommon to see used heads with cams going for less than $100 around here or on eBay.
That said, any damage to the cam bore is a new one for me, although granted I'm not exactly a guru (yet). Before this, I've never heard of any sort of cam oiling issue or cam damage in a stock SHO V6, ever.
If the cam itself was undamaged after living in that damaged bore, I don't think there's any reason to believe that it would be damaged when it's put back and run that way, especially since you've made sure the oil passage is clear now. Was the oil passage there indeed plugged?
Worst-case scenario, if the cam does warp or break or something, you could just replace the head (or you could just replace it now). It's not uncommon to see used heads with cams going for less than $100 around here or on eBay.
sho_sc
New Member
Since you mentioned it .... when you do get around to building a "performance" motor, deck the heads by taking off the least amount as possible. The way the cam tensioner works, it causes cam timing issues once the heads are decked. IIRC, my race engine heads were decked ~0.004" and there is a difference between the banks. I really need to install a set of adjustable cam sprockets. All my datalogs shows slight difference in the 2 banks (~3% fueling).
Well, the groove in the cam on at that journal has worn a ridge in to the cap. Not a huge one, but it's going to make shimming those particular valves an exercise in shim thickness. The cam itself looks completely undamaged. I'd post pictures but the heads are at the shop still.
Yes, from what it looks like, the oil passages to the cams were all plugged off. We figure it was the result of using a conventional of the wrong grade which allowed some of the heavier fractions to precipitate out. This engine was driven about 10 to 20 miles a day, 5 days a week, on mostly surface streets, for about the last 19 years. (makes it sound ancient when you realize it's a 19 year old motor)
Anyway, the oil grade was wrong and the engine very rarely ever got hot enough for the oil that was in it to redissolve the heavy fractions that would fall out when the engine cooled. That being the case, the engine never really saw temperatures over 100degC...not frequently anyway. That's the theory. In any case, whatever happened, sludge was the result, a lot of it.
Maybe...maybe not, but it might be worth checking the passages on all SHO heads from time to time just to ensure they are clear, especially if you use a multi-weight conventional oil or if you don't often allow time for the engine to get good and hot. It's a small passage and fairly easy to clean with a long thin brush.
I've decided to burnish the all of the journals with MoS2 with a felt wheel. It won't correct the clearance problem on the bad journal but it will help with lubrication all the way around.
-Zach'sV6
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This might be an opportunity in the making though. I've been playing with teflon recently and have installed teflon lined spherical bearings in the upper and lower control arms in the rear of my car. That's some serious loading. Anyway, it has me thinking about teflon inserts for these cams. That's the subject of a future thread though.
On the performance motor, I won't have the heads surfaced. Given the clamping forces involved with studs I can't see 0.004in being an issue. But since this motor is bolted and the clamping force isn't as high, I'm going to do it. I might look in to having a shim stack cut for the next motor if I can't get around surfacing the heads.
-Zach'sV6
jonheese
Used-To-Know-It-All
Yes. Page 89 (PDF pg. 59):
http://www.jonheese.com/sho_engine_book.pdf
My suggestion: print it out, hole punch it, put it in a binder and keep it in the garage.
http://www.jonheese.com/sho_engine_book.pdf
My suggestion: print it out, hole punch it, put it in a binder and keep it in the garage.
jonheese
Used-To-Know-It-All
No problem. Thank hawkeye18, as he's the one who purchased, scanned, and OCR'd the whole damn book. I just host it on my website and post the link whenever forum members need it. 
Also, there is a "Thanks" button on each post; feel free to use it as you see fit.
Also, there is a "Thanks" button on each post; feel free to use it as you see fit.
jonheese
Used-To-Know-It-All
FYI, not sure if you've seen this yet, but it might be useful to you:
http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=110616
http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=110616
I am running a T5.....
I have a 1930 ford speedster and am running a 3.0 SHO/ T-5 combo. I made the bell from an old blown up trans-axle. Use the bell part, weld on a 1-1/4" plate to the stock case surface. Then turn the center register hole. plug in a T-5 to transfer the hole pattern. Have the bell side lightly surfaced, then the plate side to get your finished thickness. Done.
I use a stock SHO t/o bearing with a few thousanths turned off the T-5 candle.
The throwout arm is cut/bent/welded 45 degrees and an anchor made to use a 1979 Pinto cable.
I might have used a Mazda or Windstar bell/trans if I had known back then....LOL
Sorry pic. exceeds forum size...
I have a 1930 ford speedster and am running a 3.0 SHO/ T-5 combo. I made the bell from an old blown up trans-axle. Use the bell part, weld on a 1-1/4" plate to the stock case surface. Then turn the center register hole. plug in a T-5 to transfer the hole pattern. Have the bell side lightly surfaced, then the plate side to get your finished thickness. Done.
I use a stock SHO t/o bearing with a few thousanths turned off the T-5 candle.
The throwout arm is cut/bent/welded 45 degrees and an anchor made to use a 1979 Pinto cable.
I might have used a Mazda or Windstar bell/trans if I had known back then....LOL
Sorry pic. exceeds forum size...
Off Road SHO
Moderator
Well damn dude, don't let that stop you from sending them to me! I'll file them in my Folder of FrankenSHOs.
Tom
jonheese
Used-To-Know-It-All
And then post them here (through SHOSpeed or whatever)!
rbruso
unlikely
Where in Arizona are you? I think this would be a neat car to check out.
Definitely create a folder on shospeed, then start a new thread here with all the pics!
(or tell us where you're hiding and we'll get someone out to take the pics)
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