Wheel studs too short by 1.016 mm

[myotis1134]

Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some wheel studs (M12-1.50) but longer than the rears? I know there are some 50 mm long studs floating around, but I did some math earlier and have a different number in mind...

So I'm prepping my new wheels - dropping them off tomorrow, and hopefully it won't take a week to get mounted... but I'm mocking shit up to make sure it all still works. My brand new hub-centric rings turned out to be garbage, but the plastic ones work just fine.

As I'm bolting up the wheel on the rear driver, I noticed for the hundredth time - that the studs are barely poking out from the wheel, but this time I busted out my calipers and measured some shit.



Lots more stuff happened, but in the interest of being stoic about this shit, I'll skip to the end.

According to my evil calculations, the front tires with the "regulation" length wheel studs have barely any grip on the threads. The rear isn't horrible at 44.46 % thread contact, but the front stud has an abysmal 22.00 % thread contact (TC)

Front - 26.092 mm / 1.027 in TC - 22.00 %
Rear - 28.575 mm / 1.125 in TC - 44.46 %

This is obviously a horrible idea. I'd like to fill at least 50 % of the available thread on my new lug-nuts, and that is how I arrived at the preferred length of 29.591 mm / 1.165 in. It's not quite 50% ( 47.95 %), but it's not a unicorn measurement either - I found a wheel stud on summitracing of that length.

So it's a legit length, which gives you a damn sight better TC than 22 %. Anyone know where I can get my hands on one?

 

[luigisho]

might not be knurled at the top but
https://www.amazon.com/Black-Bolts-12x1-5-Length-Vehicles/dp/B00OTZE2CO
https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/...4cc7-be71-be8748566a78&productGridPageIndex=3
You can contact this company and see if they offer things close to what you're looking for. Mostly Jeep/offroad

No idea if they are high quality

 

[fast Ed]

Depending on what style wheels you're using, a possible alternative to longer studs is to use "E-T style" wheel nuts that have a short shoulder in addition to the cone seat. As long as the stud holes on your wheels are large enough diameter for the shoulder, this type of nut will get you about another 1/4" of thread engagement.

 

[myotis1134]

Thanks for the replies guys.

@luigisho - The first link would be perfect if they were studs. The second link is what I have for the new wheels.

@fast Ed - I just took a look at the wheel-lug-holes with my calipers, and it's a pretty tight fit. I also did a quick search for ET lugs, and they appear to be a possible compromise - so thanks for that.

Honestly I'd rather go with longer studs, not a ton of scientific reasoning behind that inclination, just instinct...

I'll be using the original wheels with studded tires come the winter, but even those rims won't care if the studs are poking out a little more than usual since the area under the cap can accommodate the extra length.

The damn things are just too short. At the very least I'm going to replace the fronts (26.092 mm) with studs intended for the rears (28.575 mm). If I can find someone who makes custom-length studs, that'll be my first choice.

I was really hoping ARP had something in their catalog that would work. Guess life isn't that easy....

 

[luigisho]

You can always get ones with enough length to cut down as a last resort. Then you could use closed end lugs to keep the elements off the end

Did you look for an online Dorman catalog? I saw some stuff on Grainger but didn't have enough time to dig. I would also look/contact fastenal

 

[myotis1134]

So Gorilla makes a ET style lug nut that extends an additional 0.25 in past the taper.



If I put a set of rear wheel studs on the front hubs, these lug nuts give me 49% thread contact at all wheels.

Still not ideal in some ways, but very ideal in others. I like the idea of no gap between the studs and the rims - as the 0.62" O.D. of the extension is theoretically exact to the holes in the wheel.



I'll keep searching for studs the length I want. Probably have to go custom if anyone does that sort of thing, but these lug nuts will be a good temporary compromise.

 

[luigisho]

I see ford 40mm but nothing shorter in the dorman catalog m12 -1.5

 

[myotis1134]

Problem solved.





@luigisho - Good call on searching the Dorman catalog

 

[myotis1134]

Just going to continue my wheel stud research on this thread.

NoSlo gave me some good information on my other thread on the rear studs, concerning the importance of keeping as close to knurl diameter as possible to prevent part failure among other potential problems, so that's what we're gonna do.

I don't know who came up with the specific diameter used on our wheel studs, but they were ********. It's a unicorn number, which probably hasn't been used in decades. It's like they were desperate to set the SHO apart by any means necessary... 13.59 mm? Christ.

Luckily I'm on the job! I did all my math again, cleaned shit and re-measured everything, and came up with this:



I know, it's sort of a funky way to do a schematic, but It's what they want over at MSI Racing Products. They do one-offs and put coatings on everything - and I like coatings, like them a lot.

So we'll find out how many arms and legs they are going to charge me for 30 of these things.

p.s. This schematic is a replacement for the REAR wheel studs. The front studs have a smaller knurl diameter, among other things.

 

[myotis1134]

Due to a sudden urge of social responsibility, I have to warn readers of this post to NOT use Dorman Wheel lug studs 610-323 to replace the stock front wheel studs. I will be replacing the 610-323 studs I have already installed with something that has a correct knurl diameter.

The 610-323 has a knurl dia. of 12.8 mm, too small by 0.66 mm for the holes in the hub - which require a 13.46 mm knurl.

According to an tech-info thing from ARP the knurl diameter should be 0.006 - 0.016 inches (0.1524 - 0.4064 mm) LARGER than the hole it is pressed into. Tech-sheet here.

Assuming the Ford engineers were as ******** concerning the wheel studs, let's say they used the extreme high range of 0.4064 mm knurl diameter over the hub slot. This puts the hub slots somewhere around
13.46 mm - 0.4064 mm = 13.0536 mm hub hole

Even using the small end of the range isn't great: 13.46 mm - 0.006 mm = 13.454 mm hub hole.

Either way you spin it, the 610-323 doesn't come close to satisfying the requirement.

That's my DD for the day... I feel much better now.

 

[SHOrod]

Not that you probably care at this point, but the general rule of thumb for threaded fasteners of like material (steel stud + steel lugnut) is you need 1x the bolt diameter in thread engagement. So for the 12mm M12 bolt you need 12mm of thread engagement in the lugnut. With the stock studs you're getting nearly 2x the necessary engagement.

-Rod

 

[myotis1134]

I like overkill... Besides, I have to run spacers to make my new wheels work. Probably at least 6-7 mm, and I want plenty of thread for my peace of mind.

Speaking of which, I found a place for custom spacers here www.motorsport-tech.com which seems real legit. They have a spacer-configurator which has enough options to satisfy me, so I'll be getting my stuff from these guys.

 

[luigisho]

Did you find a correct knurl diameter replacement? ARP?

 

[myotis1134]

@luigisho - That's a big negative so far. I haven't heard back from the machine shop I approached. Maybe they don't actually do short runs? They are on instagram anyways, so maybe I'll harass them there to see.

These guys: www.msirp.com

 

[fast Ed]

Is it not easier to drill the hubs out to a knurl size that is readily available in the aftermarket extended studs? Or is there not enough material around the holes to do that? I've not looked at the hubs up close myself to know the answer to that ...


cheers
Ed

 

[myotis1134]

@fast Ed - Genius.

 

[Deewelch]

Does anyone know where I can get my hands on some wheel studs (M12-1.50) but longer than the rears? I know there are some 50 mm long studs floating around, but I did some math earlier and have a different number in mind...

So I'm prepping my new wheels - dropping them off tomorrow, and hopefully it won't take a week to get mounted... but I'm mocking shit up to make sure it all still works. My brand new hub-centric rings turned out to be garbage, but the plastic ones work just fine.

As I'm bolting up the wheel on the rear driver, I noticed for the hundredth time - that the studs are barely poking out from the wheel, but this time I busted out my calipers and measured some shit.

View attachment 18689

Lots more stuff happened, but in the interest of being stoic about this shit, I'll skip to the end.

According to my evil calculations, the front tires with the "regulation" length wheel studs have barely any grip on the threads. The rear isn't horrible at 44.46 % thread contact, but the front stud has an abysmal 22.00 % thread contact (TC)

Front - 26.092 mm / 1.027 in TC - 22.00 %
Rear - 28.575 mm / 1.125 in TC - 44.46 %

This is obviously a horrible idea. I'd like to fill at least 50 % of the available thread on my new lug-nuts, and that is how I arrived at the preferred length of 29.591 mm / 1.165 in. It's not quite 50% ( 47.95 %), but it's not a unicorn measurement either - I found a wheel stud on summitracing of that length.

So it's a legit length, which gives you a damn sight better TC than 22 %. Anyone know where I can get my hands on one?

Check 4wheelonline, they offer different kinds of wheels. Maybe you can see what you are looking for.

 

[myotis1134]

*Update*
@Deewelch - I've already bought wheels and tires, which should have worked just fine. They worked on paper...

I've finally got a reply from MSI Racing Products: Bottom line is they won't do it for that small a run, and yes - I have already scoured the Dorman catalog.



I have also found just one other shop that does custom wheel studs - Wilson-Garner. We'll see what happens with them, but I have a feeling they'll say the same thing.

So I can't get anyone to make me studs, and the studs with correct knurl diameter are extremely limited in length variety. Looks like I'm gonna have to go with fast Ed's suggestion and drill out the hubs to fit a knurl with more options in the length department.

 

[myotis1134]

Just laid hands on my custom wheel spacers from motorsport technology. They're very professional and badass double hub-centric spacers, and since nobody I know (besides you guys) cares about how gratifying it is to find someone who takes pride in making custom **** for our rides, I figured a mission report was in order.

First of all, these babies are made out of 6061-T6 aluminum - same stuff they make satellites and jets out of.

I really lucked out with finding this shop; they are probably the only online custom shop that allows you to literally select your own dimensions for the hub-centric features. I hit my hubs with calipers, then added a thousandth and typed it in the website.
Admittedly I have not taken calipers to these yet, but they looks so good, I'm not ready to potentially ruin the moment yet.

The spacers in back are 7 mm thick, and the front ones are 6 mm. It's always annoyed me that the rear tires are so damn far back in there... I'd like them to at least be even with the fronts. We'll see if 7 mm was thick enough.



So I got these spacers to make my new wheels work. To securely fasten down my new tires, I may need to make my wheel studs longer. Once I get these spacers on the car, I can decide if the studs need to be upgraded.

p.s. booyah. so far so good.

 

[luigisho]

You have a coating to apply to prevent corrosion? You're in that rough weather area.