Temperature problems

[Bluezone]

What thermostat do you use with your SHO?
I've been having problems with high temperature since installing a 170-degree thermostat. So I just decided to do some research and experiments in regards to these problems.
In Winter I was not able to maintain a cruising temperature below 220 . During the summer it was 210-215 degrees. My observations and experiments haven't been leaving me very satisfied.
The afrermarket 170-degree thermostat, i was using, does not allow proper coolant flow through the Hot Side thermostat housing. Spring pressure and overall design is not correct to allow the temperature motor to regulate the temperature correctly. I installed four different thermostats to compare. Three of them, 170°, the design was wanting, as the movement of the thermal motor increased hot valve control pressure. Yet did not allow appropriate low speed flow operation. Increasing or decreasing control valve spring pressure didn't help either as thermostat motor temperature sensing was limited due to block off plate design. As it stands the only thermostat that could maintain a temperature below 200 was the factory Ford 180° thermostat.
I have two more thermostats to try out. The last being a reischeperformance 170° unit, that I have not yet ordered. It's the same as the factory design.
Before that I am going to try a modified OEM thermostat (inlet), with no thermal motor control valve, in conjunction with a 160° hot side thermostat (outlet). This is something easy for me to do due to the divorced thermostat housing. Crossing my fingers.

 

[Lowrider1976]

I'm interested in the reische results as they have had a good name in the past. My Temps have been higher than I'd like with the 170° I purchased last summer. Keep us posted man!

 

[stripSHO]

My 170° I bought from GH has never had a hiccup. I think it was an oem part

 

[SHOthyme]

My 170° I bought from GH has never had a hiccup. I think it was an oem part

Same.

 

[Bluezone]

My 170° I bought from GH has never had a hiccup. I think it was an oem part

My thermostat came with my purchased Livewire. I have logs back to when it was first installed. They show highish temperature, 210-230°. Temperature gage doesn't show any difference, due to the dead done programmed in.
I suspect this is probably part of the problem I was having at the drag strip with launches. 20 degrees higher. Doesn't help things.
One more thing. I checked the opening temperatures of all the thermostats in hot water. They're all on the mark, for opening temperature, in that respect.

 

[Bluezone]

Just had a look at the information page for performance pack that I bought. Different thermostat then the one I received. So if your thermostat is the same as the one pictured, it's OEM Style.
I should probably be running at least 10 degrees cooler than I am, with a 170-degree thermostat.

 

[SM105K]

Stock is what I run. Don't have any problems. I think the lower T-stat for "power" is a gimmick. Yes, it has been debated to death as well.

 

[Bluezone]

Stock is what I run. Don't have any problems. I think the lower T-stat for "power" is a gimmick. Yes, it has been debated to death as well.

I don't know if running another 10 degrees cooler than I am now is going to help things. But I do know going back to the stock thermostat and dropping 20° made a difference. So I'd have to say stock thermostat pretty good.

 

[Shaggy]

Stock is what I run. Don't have any problems. I think the lower T-stat for "power" is a gimmick. Yes, it has been debated to death as well.

So you haven't changed it since owning it yet?

 

[SM105K]

So you haven't changed it since owning it yet?

I changed it when I did the GH IC install. I replaced it for another stock T-stat from Ford. Here is my reasoning for the gimmick of lower T-Stats.

Low Temp Thermostats: What’s the Advantage? | Tuner University

 

[Bluezone]

I changed it when I did the GH IC install. I replaced it for another stock T-stat from Ford. Here is my reasoning for the gimmick of lower T-Stats.

Low Temp Thermostats: What’s the Advantage? | Tuner University

I'd have to agree with you especially with the link you posted. 10 degrees F of engine temperature will not make a big difference. Especially on a naturally-aspirated engine. Even turbocharged engines will not see huge benefits.
It depends though. In my case, I was running 20 degrees F higher then I wanted or should be. That said, the drop in coolant engine temperature, into what should be the normal range, made a noticeable negative difference in gas mileage. Now drop another 10 degrees Fahrenheit in operating temperature with a 170 degree thermostat. Yes, I did check on this. You're going being gaining back a little bit of ignition timing in the 225 degrees VS 195° operating temperature.
So is 10 degrees worth chasing, probably not. For specifically drag racing, 30° is probably, maybe, worth me chasing.
One other thing, if you are adding meth, using E30/85 or spraying NOx, your cooling the air charge/adding octane. So the article doesn't quite apply. Different conditions.
For me, no E30/E85 available (i wish it was), harder to come by meth, plus i don't have any interest in running nitrous. Then add in the fact that 93 and 94 octane around here sucks. Well, I will take what I can get to help with knock and pre ignition.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

I changed it when I did the GH IC install. I replaced it for another stock T-stat from Ford. Here is my reasoning for the gimmick of lower T-Stats.

Low Temp Thermostats: What’s the Advantage? | Tuner University

Going off a link in that article, has anyone found a high pressure cap for our cooling system? It seems fairly easy to find one in the import tuner scene and/or for caps that go directly on the radiator. I see some of the Ford trucks are running 21 psi caps stock. I would like to up mine from the factory 16 psi.

 

[FrankK]

Ta2dResqr,

Unless you plan on running extremely high coolant temps then I would leave the standard pressure cap on the car.

Frank

 

[stripSHO]

That article, and the linked radiator cap article, are both ignorant nonsensical trash and we're all worse off for having read them. Author has not the slightest grasp on thermodynamics and is seemingly just regurgitating bits of counterfactual tribal "knowledge" that they've skimmed off random forums.

If you take this car and drop in a 170° thermostat then set the fans to come on at 180° instead of the factory 212°, you will pick up an average of 1.2° timing at high load from that 30° temperature difference. This is not tuning magic; it's literally just the factory stock ECT timing correction. Figure that 1.2° is worth at least 3 whp, which makes a $10 thermostat the best hp per $ mod there is. Wear difference is neglible in this range. OEMs choose thermostats and coolant setpoints for fuel economy above all else. As @Bluezone has observed, a hot engine has a higher thermal efficiency and gets better cruising MPG.

I'll admit, it is a possibility that a thermostat swap might not matter much for the multitude of guys out there running their Taurus in Nascar cup races with stock cooling systems. But for the select few of us that race our cars no more than 12 seconds at a time with minimal temperature rise it's pretty much a no-brainer.


As far as system pressure goes, you WANT BOILING. Modern cooling jackets are specifically designed to optimize the amount of surface nucleate boiling. Studies show that controlled boiling on jacket surfaces improves cooling performance up to 6x. The basic physics of it all is that you would have to heat a lb of water by 970°F for it to absorb the same amount of heat as it would by being boiled. Trying to up the coolant pressure to inhibit boiling is just shooting yourself in the foot and begging for a hose clamp to fail you. If you run your engine hot enough to pop a 16 psi relief you're already in big trouble. Raising the relief setting only ensures a total meltdown.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

Defintely loving all the thoughts and discussion lately. Makes me realize how far removed from the Engineering world I've been the past few years as a project manager, and gets me excited to use my brain more haha.

As far as the lower temp thermostat adding power, in 90% of applications I would agree it's a gimmick and a "Quick sell" for profit. However, on the Ecoboost engine, or other engines that utilize liquid cooled turbos, we want those turbos to stay as cool as possible at all times. While the actual operating temperature will not change, as the thermostat isn't changing physics, it is only designed to hold the coolant under pressure until it reaches the desired temperature, then opens up and allows optimal flow to the rest of the engine. Since the turbos are liquid cooled, we want that cooling flowing as quick as possible, for the caveat of the small turbos we have is that that, while they have virtually no lag and hit peak boost quickly, they also quickly become little heat pumps and we want to keep that housing cool as long as we can. By flowing quicker and being coupled with the fans coming on sooner, it does have an effect on IATs and therefore allows for more timing, especially in a hot lap environment. Is it adding power? No. Is it allowing you to keep your power longer and creating more consistent power? Definitely.

I do find it interesting that you say that the thermostats we, Gearhead, and Unleashed offer are the wrong design, for they are modified from OEM thermostats and utilize Motorcraft components. Due to recent supply issues we do occasionally get Motorad units, but they are an oem refurbishment and only the base plate is utilized. The 150* version that LMS sells IS the incorrect version, as they are a cold side unit, but the SHO upgrade is designed to be a HOT SIDE replacement. Just to confirm, are you replacing the thermostat that is down below the alternator, or are you replacing the one on the driver side of the engine under the airbox and induction Y-pipe?

I've never had an issue keeping my coolant temps below 190*, and 90% of the time any time we've had a customer saying that they experience temps in the 200s they've always ended up having an air bubble in the system, and once properly burping the system per Ford specification, the issues have pretty much eliminated themselves.

 

[Bluezone]

Defintely loving all the thoughts and discussion lately. Makes me realize how far removed from the Engineering world I've been the past few years as a project manager, and gets me excited to use my brain more haha.

As far as the lower temp thermostat adding power, in 90% of applications I would agree it's a gimmick and a "Quick sell" for profit. However, on the Ecoboost engine, or other engines that utilize liquid cooled turbos, we want those turbos to stay as cool as possible at all times. While the actual operating temperature will not change, as the thermostat isn't changing physics, it is only designed to hold the coolant under pressure until it reaches the desired temperature, then opens up and allows optimal flow to the rest of the engine. Since the turbos are liquid cooled, we want that cooling flowing as quick as possible, for the caveat of the small turbos we have is that that, while they have virtually no lag and hit peak boost quickly, they also quickly become little heat pumps and we want to keep that housing cool as long as we can. By flowing quicker and being coupled with the fans coming on sooner, it does have an effect on IATs and therefore allows for more timing, especially in a hot lap environment. Is it adding power? No. Is it allowing you to keep your power longer and creating more consistent power? Definitely.

I do find it interesting that you say that the thermostats we, Gearhead, and Unleashed offer are the wrong design, for they are modified from OEM thermostats and utilize Motorcraft components. Due to recent supply issues we do occasionally get Motorad units, but they are an oem refurbishment and only the base plate is utilized. The 150* version that LMS sells IS the incorrect version, as they are a cold side unit, but the SHO upgrade is designed to be a HOT SIDE replacement. Just to confirm, are you replacing the thermostat that is down below the alternator, or are you replacing the one on the driver side of the engine under the airbox and induction Y-pipe?

I've never had an issue keeping my coolant temps below 190*, and 90% of the time any time we've had a customer saying that they experience temps in the 200s they've always ended up having an air bubble in the system, and once properly burping the system per Ford specification, the issues have pretty much eliminated themselves.

Great info, here is a picture of the thermostat I received. It's quite possible this particular thermostat is from other sources. There's no name brand on it.

It's the airbox side. I wasn't aware there was any other coolant regulating devices Elsewhere on the engine other than that one. What am I looking for below the alternator in the way of thermostats?

I considered the possibility of there being an air bubble in the system or even other cooling problems. So I had the system chemically flushed and vacuum refilled with the latest Ford POAT coolant at a radiator repair shop. No difference and the repair shop said the thermostat was operating as it should be.

I also considered the possibility that the coolant temperature sender unit was out on its reading, but the CHT sender unit was showing high temperature as well.
That's the point when I started trying different thermostats and found that the OEM thermostat kept the lowest temperatures.
I have a 150 degree thermostat to try out as well (not LMS). I kind of suspect it will be too cold to get past they closed loop parameters. I won't be testing that one until summer though. Too cold in the Great White North (props Bob n' Doug) for that sort of thing this time of year. LOL.
Oh one other thing. Well running temperature comparisons between the different thermostats in a heated *** (p o t) of water. The supplied thermostat, failed closed during one of the tests. The Pressure Vessel the wax motor was in, started expanding the two pressed together halves. So it is a good thing that I had pulled it. I left this information out because it really didn't matter and it can happen to any thermostat.

 

[Bluezone]

I found this interesting chart on engine oil and transmission fluid temperature range.

 

[Bluezone]

That article, and the linked radiator cap article, are both ignorant nonsensical trash and we're all worse off for having read them. Author has not the slightest grasp on thermodynamics and is seemingly just regurgitating bits of counterfactual tribal "knowledge" that they've skimmed off random forums.

If you take this car and drop in a 170° thermostat then set the fans to come on at 180° instead of the factory 212°, you will pick up an average of 1.2° timing at high load from that 30° temperature difference. This is not tuning magic; it's literally just the factory stock ECT timing correction. Figure that 1.2° is worth at least 3 whp, which makes a $10 thermostat the best hp per $ mod there is. Wear difference is neglible in this range. OEMs choose thermostats and coolant setpoints for fuel economy above all else. As @Bluezone has observed, a hot engine has a higher thermal efficiency and gets better cruising MPG.

I'll admit, it is a possibility that a thermostat swap might not matter much for the multitude of guys out there running their Taurus in Nascar cup races with stock cooling systems. But for the select few of us that race our cars no more than 12 seconds at a time with minimal temperature rise it's pretty much a no-brainer.


As far as system pressure goes, you WANT BOILING. Modern cooling jackets are specifically designed to optimize the amount of surface nucleate boiling. Studies show that controlled boiling on jacket surfaces improves cooling performance up to 6x. The basic physics of it all is that you would have to heat a lb of water by 970°F for it to absorb the same amount of heat as it would by being boiled. Trying to up the coolant pressure to inhibit boiling is just shooting yourself in the foot and begging for a hose clamp to fail you. If you run your engine hot enough to pop a 16 psi relief you're already in big trouble. Raising the relief setting only ensures a total meltdown.

Excellent insight. I missed your post. Reminded me of some things that I had forgot.

 

[Bluezone]

Defintely loving all the thoughts and discussion lately. Makes me realize how far removed from the Engineering world I've been the past few years as a project manager, and gets me excited to use my brain more haha.

As far as the lower temp thermostat adding power, in 90% of applications I would agree it's a gimmick and a "Quick sell" for profit. However, on the Ecoboost engine, or other engines that utilize liquid cooled turbos, we want those turbos to stay as cool as possible at all times. While the actual operating temperature will not change, as the thermostat isn't changing physics, it is only designed to hold the coolant under pressure until it reaches the desired temperature, then opens up and allows optimal flow to the rest of the engine. Since the turbos are liquid cooled, we want that cooling flowing as quick as possible, for the caveat of the small turbos we have is that that, while they have virtually no lag and hit peak boost quickly, they also quickly become little heat pumps and we want to keep that housing cool as long as we can. By flowing quicker and being coupled with the fans coming on sooner, it does have an effect on IATs and therefore allows for more timing, especially in a hot lap environment. Is it adding power? No. Is it allowing you to keep your power longer and creating more consistent power? Definitely.

I do find it interesting that you say that the thermostats we, Gearhead, and Unleashed offer are the wrong design, for they are modified from OEM thermostats and utilize Motorcraft components. Due to recent supply issues we do occasionally get Motorad units, but they are an oem refurbishment and only the base plate is utilized. The 150* version that LMS sells IS the incorrect version, as they are a cold side unit, but the SHO upgrade is designed to be a HOT SIDE replacement. Just to confirm, are you replacing the thermostat that is down below the alternator, or are you replacing the one on the driver side of the engine under the airbox and induction Y-pipe?

I've never had an issue keeping my coolant temps below 190*, and 90% of the time any time we've had a customer saying that they experience temps in the 200s they've always ended up having an air bubble in the system, and once properly burping the system per Ford specification, the issues have pretty much eliminated themselves.

I forgot to mention, Lee, Ortiz didn't supply in my thermostat. It was through another vendor, but I won't get into that. Makes no sense to name names. But you're quite definitely not being aimed at, or even anyone in particular.
So apologies if you feel that I was picking on you.

 

[FiveLeeter918]

I forgot to mention, Lee, Ortiz didn't supply in my thermostat. It was through another vendor, but I won't get into that. Makes no sense to name names. But you're quite definitely not being aimed at, or even anyone in particular.
So apologies if you feel that I was picking on you.

nope not at all, just stating that aside from LMS all Ecoboost vendors get their thermostat from the same place s