SDPatt and Rangerj, I need ya...

[DJ SHO]

Read up how to test the crank sensor, DIS, Cam sensor, and ignition from Rangerj by using a DMM.

Here's the scoop with that on my car:

I replaced the crank sensor because I got a 211 code. BTW this is still all related to my problem that happened two weeks ago. It's gapped right, installed correctly and connected. Still no starting.

So after reading about some drivability problems others have had, like loosing power over 5k rpm like I was experiencing, I got another cam sensor tonight from a freind and tried that out. No difference.

All grounds look good, they are tight, etc. I tested the dark blue wire coming from the CPS (pip circuit - I hope that's the right one) to check to see if I had 3-7 volts like Rangerj said it should have (step 1 in the procedure). I only got .5 to .7 volts which would indicate why the computer is probably not getting enough signal to allow it to start.

The CE light stays on when cranking (indicating that it's not receiving the cam sensor signal for startup). It did this with my original cam sensor too. As a matter of fact, it just started doing this (staying lit) a few days ago (the last time I tried to get it to run when pop-starting it). Before that it went off when cranking, and I got it to start that one day, but it ran rough, then found the cats glowing. The rough running might have been the cam sensor, dunno.

So now I'm thinking there's a reason why this new crank sensor is not reading enough voltage, and the cam sensor is not reading right either (a conidicence?) at the same time now. I've checked all the grounds. I even had the intake off last week, re-installed it, and got it to run, so my grounds must have been ok to the intake. I ahven't touched anything accept remove the ypipe and reinstall it. Then I had no starting/firing after that. This now sounds electrical to me. If the grounds are good, what are the chances of both sensors not getting enough power to work right? Could this be a bad computer?

Thanks in advance. Still stumped. Out of answers. Still ******... rant

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: DJ SHO ]</small>

 

[TYSHO]

DTC 211 indicates two successive erratic Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) pulses occured, resulting in a possile miss or stall.

Possible causes:

- Loose wires / connectors
- Arcing secondary ignition components (coil, wires, plugs, ect.).
- On-board transmitter (2-way radio).

Are any of the above present?

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: TYSHO ]</small>

 

[masho95]

Yeah if you're not getting enough power to both sensors you might start to consider a computer problem. Another thing you should definitely check would be the battery connections and cables. Me and my friend recently had a problem with rough running and occasional stalls due to the PIP sensor losing power. Thought it was a bad sensor, and changing the CKP sensor. Same exactl problems the next day, and it threw BOTH CKP and CMP codes. Brand new CKP sensor so VERY hard to believe it was bad again. Ended up checking the electrical connections and grounds at the battery. Grounds were all good but when we checked the small positive lead coming off the positive cable (the one that feeds the PCM/computer) I found a splice. Closer inspection found two other splices the last one closest to the wiring harness which broke when I tugged on it a little bit. Respliced a new wire all the way back and there hasn't been a problem since. So my point is to double check all the wiring at the battery and make sure it's tight. Good luck getting to the bottom of it.

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: masho95 ]</small>

 

[DJ SHO]

Since those tests were in order (as Rangerj posted them) I didn't even make it to the rest of the testing. You can't go on to check the next thing until the PIP circit is working correctly. DAMN PIP!! headbang

I don't have that small power wire on the B+ terminal on my '94. I've never had it, there's only one 4-6 guage wire in that terminal. I saw the pics on Shotimes about bad battery connections and saw the little power wire on that guy's '91 Plus, but I don't have one. I was reading that article because he was saying that bad power/grounds at the battery can cause all kinds of havoc, and cause the EEC to act funny or not work correctly.

I don't think I have any arcing or anything like that. I emailed Scott and told him this...

In my very post about this problem (2 weeks ago)I stated that when I pulled over to try and start my car, when this whole poor running condition happened, I tried to start it once and everything shut off when I turned the key to start. I had a loose negative battery terminal I found out. I wonder if this started a problem for me.

And it makes sense now - maybe. The very first thing that happened was a loss of power at 5-6k rpms (possible cam sensor not getting/transferring correct voltage). Then it was like the computer and/or PIP circuit (crank sensor) was acting up. I was getting engine cutting out, bucking, backfiring and stuff like that just a few minutes later at lower rpms. So got her home (aka TOWED). I had the now start conditions, and if push started it ran like crap until 4k then same deal at 5-6 k again. Then I pulled the intake, cleaned it, pulled plugs and cleaned them, reinstalled intake. That would involve disconnecting the ground on the back of the intake. When re-installed, that's when I got her to run a little better after push-starting it. Now this is just a shot in dark that maybe thpse grounds on the back of the intake had something to do with the "new" running condition, but it could also have been from my bad cat. converters. Yes, they were plugged and have seen better days - 160k miles on stock y-pipe? Yeah, it was time to get gutted.

Does any of this new info make snese now? Maybe those bad battery connections caused the EEC to burn something out but the self test still works and some of the outputs of it still work ok? Holler back ya'll. Thanks.

Me because my car is down ---> cuss
My car because it "owns" me right now ---> boink boink boink

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: DJ SHO ]</small>

 

[sdpatt]

Check for the smaller guage wire on teh negative battery terminal. That is the ground for the keep alive memory power for the EEC on the earlier SHOs. Follow that wire path back to the EEC. It should go to a chassis ground lug, a snap connector, then to the EEC.

 

[DJ SHO]

sdpatt:
Check for the smaller guage wire on teh negative battery terminal. That is the ground for the keep alive memory power for the EEC on the earlier SHOs. Follow that wire path back to the EEC. It should go to a chassis ground lug, a snap connector, then to the EEC.

That one is fine too, and is connected at the connector. I know it works too, because I used it last week to clear the codes to see if any new ones would pop up.

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: DJ SHO ]</small>

 

[TYSHO]

Check your coil, plugs, wires and whatever else. Thinking is not verifying. Believe it or not that is a reason to be why your having your problems. Ford wouldn't have this book that I'm trying to help you out with on your problems. It doesn't lie. Simply answer and you'll find your problem. Don't jump the gun shooting at the computer then come back mad because you just spent the money on a computer when it was something else free of fix or cheaper.

Once you 'throughly' verify about the causes in my last post and get back with the answer then, does it even start or no?

 

[rangerj]

DJ,

In doing the DIS electrical tests the DMM or the LED test light is probed at the DIS and the negative battery terminal.

When looking at the DIS (on the intake manifold crossover tube) from the passenger side of the car, the wires are from top to bottom on the Left; 1. VBAT, 2. CID (DG), 3. PIP to EEC, 4. PIP (dark Blue wire), 5. SPOUT (Y/LG), and 6. DPI. On the right the wires are from BOTTOM to TOP; 7. IGN GROUND (BK/O), 8. COIL, 9. COIL, 10. COIL, 11. COIL, 12. IDM (GY/O).

Do you tests with the KOEO. Note that a failure of the SPOUT to DIS module indicates a control unit or wiring is faulty. Before doing the tests check your wire connections. Look for any corrosion, bent or broken pins, breaks in the wire, etc. Continuity tests would be a good idea.

Don't give up on the SHO, and don't start throwing parts at it. The sensors work with low voltage amounts and are sensitive to the least amount of corrosion or poor contact.

Take the time to inspect the wires in the ignition system and all of their connections. rangerj

 

[DJ SHO]

Ok thanks for the info everyone so far. Gonna do some more "testing" and let you guys know what's up.

Here's a question. Well I started to some DMM checking today and came up with this. Someone told me to check the resistance from the vehicle ground to the ignition ground (that goes to the CPS, CID, DIS, etc) and see that the resistance was. With the key on ("run") I got almost 44 ohms and it was dropping slowly. Key off it was .3 ohms. The person who told me to do this went and tested his '90 SHO tonight and came up with different readings. He had a reading of 4.5 ohms with the car in "run" and 0.0 ohms with the key off.

Is this helpful in anyway to know this?

 

[projectSHO89]

Do not use a meter to measure resistance on a powered circuit!!

Doing so will result in 1) erroneous readings and 2) likely damage to the meter.

When measuring resistance, the meter provides a constant current source, them measures the voltage "drop" across the circuit under test and mathematically converts that to a reading that is presented as resistance. That's how they work. By connecting a meter to a powered circuit, the currents and voltages present in the circuit will interfere with the function of the meter, including the possibility of damagaing the meter.

To check for excessive resistance in a circuit while under load, connect the VOLTMETER across the connection circuit to be tested, apply power, and measure the VOLTAGE drop. You can then make relative comparisons to another vehicle. In order to quantify the actual resistance in the circuit after measuring a voltage drop, you would have to open the circuit and measure the current flowing through it at the same time. Too much trouble for most applications..


If you measure voltage drop across what should be a straight connection while that circuit is under load, you have a problem that needs repair. Looked for dirty/corroded connections or a cable that has turned to copper sulfide from corrosion.

Steve

 

[Bluto]

Gary it sounds fuel related to me.
I will bet you have a fuel regulator problem.

I suggest you have me and Adam over to help you wink I am sure the three of us can figure ot out.

-Carl
laughing

 

[Slo-Sho]

I agree, it's gotta be fuel related. boink

 

[DJ SHO]

Hey Bluto and Slosho, sound like you guys are leading me in the right direction. MAybe I'll re-check the fuel pressure and I'll let you guys know what I come up with... laughing

Maybe Bluto and Trojan Man could help me swap out some parts. What the ****, let's get some video of your cars too while you're here. My neighbors don't care about all the burnouts and speeding down my street. wink

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: DJ SHO ]</small>

 

[Trojan Man]

hehehe

I'd lend ya my coil pack but I've heard rumors that Ford used different ones in 92 MTXs...

 

[DJ SHO]

Trojan Man:
hehehe

I'd lend ya my coil pack but I've heard rumors that Ford used different ones in 92 MTXs...

Well, duh. What about the ones in the '92 ATX's?

 

[haydenm315]

Doing some tests of the fuel system may be in order. Does the fuel pump make a buzzing noise when you turn the car to the on position? Maybe your fuel cutoff switch has been tripped.

I let my friend borrow my ford tempo recently. He agreed to buy me a front motor mount which is nice. Unfortunately he got into an accident and didnt' get the plate of the 18 wheeler that ran into him. THe accident caused decent damage to the left side of the car. The quarter panel was bent enough to cause tire rub . I used a hammer and chisel to fix the fender. The banging with the hammer was enough to trip the fuel cutoff switch located in the trunk. My car would not start and the check engine light stayed on while cranking. If you spray some starting fluid into the maf, and the car starts for a few seconds, it's a fuel problem. Hopefully the starting fluid won't mess up any sensors. All I had to do was push the little red button in and my car started right up.