running rough

[thecrew2999]

ok where to start.
well i did the swap and used 3.0 heads so now its a 3.2 mtx instead of atx and i used the atx comp and wiring and also did the gear selector mod so the comp thinks its in park and drive at the same time so everything works properly.
after i did this my fuel injector o rings and all were bad and i must have needed sleep because i forget head gaskets.
well it ran rough like it had a mis at first and i figured it was because the injectors were leaking some since they needed new rings and grommets and i needed to fix the exhaust.
anyways i replace the head gaskets injector o rings and all that good stuff then i did the rod bearings also.
they were rough looking so it was a good thing i changed them. anyways fresh oil and coolant went in after all this was done.
then i started it up and it took a second to start up (yes i did disconnect the DIS and hit the starter till the oil light was gone) well after it was running it was still rough and i still had my exhaust leak because i didnt fix it yet since i wanted to hear it run and all.
i still had the miss which im not sure where its coming from but it always idles up and down then smooths out, if you hit the gas it goes up with hesitation and idles down real low like its gonna stall at first or other times it does stall...
once it gets warmed up from what i could tell it dont wanna run like it stalls out and all and olny way to keep it running is by hitting the gas and i cant get it to idle out by itself.
before i did all that and i had it together the first time i did run it without full coolant for a few seconds trying to figure something out but it was never long enough to warm up so im sure i didnt warp anything.
there isnt any oil in the plug wells all the plug wires are connected right. i am using a OEM y pipe on the car so maybe the cats are plugged up but i doubt it.
i have a slight exhaust leak where the y pipe connects to the manifold but i dont think it is enough or would cause it to run anything like that. the O2 sensors are the ones off the car when it was a atx car so they arent brand new but they seemed fine to me.
the heads and all are torqued down to spec along with everything else. when i had the heads off and also when i did the bearings everything seemed fine and good compression as it seemed when i moved the pistons.
my olny guess im coming up with is maybe one of the injectors got some crap in it and it isnt spraying properly. i know they arent leaking anymore i dont smell any gas.
i didnt really spend a whole lotta time tonight trying to get it sorted out since im sleeping after the rod bearings and i know this probley sounds like it how im typing.
im almost 100% all the wiring is hooked up tight and properly.
i also hear a little bit of a knock every now and then and a little tap coming from the heads. the knock im not 100% sure but i believe its because its running rough and i cant pin point it really at the moment.
i hope i covered everything in line of questions about whats going on.
any help would be great as always. im stumped on this one.
:cry:

 

[thecrew2999]

got some new info... i ran the KOEO test and got these codes.
637 - 327 - 522 - 558 - 621 - 622 - 641 - 652 - 543 - 624
now for 327 its DPFE output circuit below min voltage
522 in gear
558 EVR circuit failure
543 fuel pump secondairy failure

the other codes i could now find since on shotimes they were not on the chart.
im gonna run the KOER test here in a min.

also the tapng sound seems to be coming from the middle top of the engine.
and its starting to sound like a rod knock even tho its not loud as all the rod knocks i heard before.
i checked all the bearings when i took them out.
i didnt get a plastigauge with my rod bearing kit they forgot to include it but the old ones were in spec.
one of the middle bearings was spun but i didnt see any damage to the crankor anything just the little tabs that hold the bearing in place were moved.
the engine didnt knock at all before or tap whatever.
the bearings did need changed as it looked they were about shot showing copper and all.
im starting to think i need another SHO.
seems like all this work for nothing and waste of money.
im lost because i never had a problem doing this stuff before.
starting to also think i shouldnt have done the swap... sigh

 

[thecrew2999]

i tried to run the KOER test and for some reason it will not run it,not even try.
im lost.
also is it possible that the timing it out and causing it to do all this?
i mean i lined up the marks best i could... the rear head mights been off a slight bit but all the teeth, dots and lines were lines up. but the rear head is a pain to get in place.
yeah after it warms up like when i had the pin out for the test it didnt wanna run like it would stall on its own with some backfiring but not bad just ever so often to hear.
but when i had the pin in it seemed to idle but still kinda rough.

 

[white93atx]

That sucks dude. If I lived a little closer I come over to check it out. Try www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/eec.htm for codes they have a very good list.Keep meshing with it you will get it running.

 

[Paul]

3.0 & 3.2 heads are identical except for the front cyl. bank coil mount. If you have a 3.2 however you need 3.2 headgaskets. Is the coilpack mounted proper? Are ya sure?

 

[thecrew2999]

543 (O) Fuel pump monitor circuit shows no power - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits
(M) (Service 556 code first if present) Fuel pump relay or battery power feed was open - Power / Fuel Pump Circuits

where do i find the fuel pump relay (fuel pump circuits) fuel pump monitor thingy?


624 (O,M) Solenoid/circuit failure -Electronic Pressure Control (EPC) currennttt is high - Transmissions

652 - 641 - 622 - 621 - 637 all have to do with the transmission since my atx is missing.
ok that part makes sense now. not sure if now my fuel pump is going or what because from what the codes say its acting up like before.
ill have to check the fuel rails to see what pressure im getting which would cause it to run rough and act like it is as well as make the knocking sound which is because its running hard...
i still think its might be a dirty injector also which would cause it not to run right also...
if i get this 95mtx ill have something and can curse my car out haha.
hoping i can get this working soon after all this work it would be pointless to give up.
from what it looks like from the codes its just the stuff to do with the fuel pump.
i supose injector problems dont throw codes do they ?

 

[thecrew2999]

also thanks white93atx im glad that was a full list of codes i was getting worried because the guide i had had codes on there that werent listed.. i was starting to think my car was as crazy as i am.

 

[thecrew2999]

one more thing...
why dont my car run this test?

KOER (Key On Engine Running)


Now, start the engine. The CEL will blink 3 times. Watch the RPM guage carefully, and when you see the RPMs rising (the computer is advancing the timing) then follow these steps: (this is so the computer know these things are working)


1. Turn the steering wheel 1/2 turn to the right and then to the left.
2. Step on the brake
3. If your car is an ATX, switch the overdrive off, then back on.


In a moment the RPMs will go back down and the check engine light will flash once. Now step on the gas for just a second (at least 1/4 way down). Now the codes will be displayed.


i have done it before and it performed great and got perfect balance and all. now since the swap it dont like me.


also when i had the heads off last i noticed it looked like the engine was running very rich.
the heads in some spots were burnt a bit and had some carbon build up on some valves.
would the fuel pump cause it to run rich?

 

[Paul]

Fault codes don't account for whats actually going on. In fact, fault codes usually will only send the message that a sensor/component is out of its normal functioning range and will not tell you why. This does not mean a red flagged components are bad. It does mean the component or whatever sensor is being effected by a current drivability condition. When you say "the last time I had the heads off" I have to ask myself, Maybe-you had the heads off too many times?

 

[thecrew2999]

hmm no one has any ideas yet? or am i just hated haha.

 

[projectSHO89]

hmm no one has any ideas yet? or am i just hated haha.

To tell you the truth, my eyes glazed over when I tried reading your very first post... and that was that...

 

[93rev2sev]

Here, I'll try to translate his first post...

Ok ,where to start?
I did the MTX tranny into ATX car swap and used 3.0 heads. Now its a 3.2 mtx instead of atx. I ended up retaining the ATX computer and wiring harness. I made sure to trick the computer into thinking its in park and drive at the same time. I think everything should work properly.
Here's is where it gets fuzzy-the following lines could not be translated.
After i did this my fuel injector o rings and all were bad and i must have needed sleep because i forget head gaskets.

Well, I did get it started, but it ran rough...like it had a miss. At first, I figured it was because the injectors were leaking, since they needed new rings and grommets. I also thought it ran rough because of an exhaust leak that I needed to fix.

Anyway, I replaced the head gaskets, injector o rings, and all that good stuff. I also changed Rod bearings - they were rough, so I'm glad I changed them. I changed the oil and coolant when I was done. Then, I started it up (after priming the oil system with the DIS unplugged). It took a second to start up but it did start. Well, after I got it running it was still rough. Maybe because I havent fixed that exhaust leak yet?
I still have the miss and I'm not sure where its coming from. The idle speed bounces up and down then smooths out. If I hit the gas, it revs up with hesitation and idles down real low like its gonna stall. Sometimes, it does stall...
Once it gets warmed up, it still wants to stall. The only way to keep it running is by feathering the gas pedal.

I ran the engine without coolant, but just for a moment - nothing should have gotten hot enough to cause damage.
There is no oil in the plug wells and I have verified the spark plug wire order. I am using an OEM y-pipe on the car, but I doubt they are clogged enough to make it run this poorly.

The exhaust leak I mentioned is at the y-pipe to exhaust manifold connection and it's a pretty small leak so I'm not worried about it. The O2 sensors are the ones that were originally on the car(before the swap). They arent brand new, but they seemed fine to me.
The heads are torqued down to spec along with everything else. When I had the heads off and also when i did the bearings, everything seemed fine. I had good compression - as far as I could tell.
I am suspiscious that I have a dirty injector/s...I didnt really spend a whole lotta time tonight trying to get it sorted out. I'm dog tired and this keyboard looks like a pillow.
I'm almost 100% all the wiring is hooked up tight and properly.

I also hear a little bit of a knock every now and then. And a little tap coming from the heads. The knock I'm not 100% sure about but I believe it's happening because the engine is running so rough.
I hope I covered everything-I tried to anticipate your questions.

any help would be great as always. I'm stumped on this one. Maybe some sleep will help.

 

[thecrew2999]

yeah sometimes i post all messed up.
im mainly on here when im tired so go figure.
thanks for idiot proofing my text

 

[93rev2sev]

I was just trying to understand it...

LOL no problem...

 

[Mike93]

I only have a few minutes here...and could quickly skim this thread....but it sounds like you and I are having the exact same problem with our mtx-to-atx SHO's.

I think we could learn quite a bit from one another...I'll try to check back here tonight to take a closer look at your problems.

 

[thecrew2999]

I only have a few minutes here...and could quickly skim this thread....but it sounds like you and I are having the exact same problem with our mtx-to-atx SHO's.

I think we could learn quite a bit from one another...I'll try to check back here tonight to take a closer look at your problems.

i gladly take any help.
i know for one tho its the fuel pump... i got unlucky and im almost sure i got one of the weak fuel pumps they put in some atxs.
the noise in the bottom end didnt really start till after the rod bearings.
im gonna post some pics of my old bearings with the measuring stick to show where they stood as far as in spec of not. (i didnt get a plastigauge so..)

i do have an exhaust leak but i havent fixed it because well if i gotta rip it back apart theres no point.

im honestly thinking i mgith just need a new 3.2 so im not sure on it yet.

if i do go another 3.2 im planning on keeping the old block and making it a 3.6 whenever the cranks and all (like money) are avaible.

 

[RStalveyARFF]

check for vacuum leaks.

 

[Mike93]

i gladly take any help.
i know for one tho its the fuel pump... i got unlucky and im almost sure i got one of the weak fuel pumps they put in some atxs.
the noise in the bottom end didnt really start till after the rod bearings.
im gonna post some pics of my old bearings with the measuring stick to show where they stood as far as in spec of not. (i didnt get a plastigauge so..)

i do have an exhaust leak but i havent fixed it because well if i gotta rip it back apart theres no point.

im honestly thinking i mgith just need a new 3.2 so im not sure on it yet.

if i do go another 3.2 im planning on keeping the old block and making it a 3.6 whenever the cranks and all (like money) are avaible.

Well, hopefully you're right and it is the fuel pump...however, in my experiences with this swap is just when you think you've found you're problem, you're still wrong.

I had nearly identical issues to yours; leak in exhaust, can't run KOER tests, codes for atx getting thrown, engine feels like it has a miss, stumbles to rev, slow to come back down...

I've checked for:
fuel pressure...good.
Vacuum....good.
Even pulled the manifold to test each injector individually...those were good.
Swapped DIS...good.
Coil...good.
Wires...good (and in the correct order)
MAF...good
EGR...was bad, now is blocked off.
Exhuast...leak, now good.
Fuel filter....replaced
Computer...good
Timing belt...was off a few teeth. Thought FOR SURE that was the problem...nope, still runs like ****.

Another wierd thing is the problem is not a constant. For example; plugs will foul out at will, and on any and all cylinders at the most random times. Go figure...

Only things left I can think of are wire harness and a can of gas and a match???

This is interesting as we are having similar problems...however a fella named Dima who posts under "Operdot" performed the same swap as us and his car runs fine. He stopped by my house a few months back and I went for a ride in the car....so I know that there is hope!!!

I dunno...like was said above, check for vacuum, check fuel pressure, read the plugs....if you haven't done so already. Keep us posted.

Mike

 

[thecrew2999]

im having a forum member stop by hopefully friday or saturday to help me out.
he knows a good amount on SHOs and hes gonna bring by a pressure gauge, his books and some other things to get this worked out.

i got a update tho.

seems my car is throwing me off a bit. the noise i thought i heard in the bottom end and figured it might be a rod bearing, well it seems to be gone.
just a slight noise sounds like its coming from the front of the engine like a bad accessory or something but its really masked by the exhaust leak.

i did crank the car till the oil light was gone after i did the bearings oringionally.

this time i floored the car before i started so i knew the engine was oiled before it fired. (something i also do when the car sits for a few hours or more)
and well it started up and didnt make the knocking i heard before.

if the bearings arent bad ill be 1000 times happier and not as worried as the rest of the stuff can be figured out.

im gonna get some pics on the old bearings posted tho here in a few since they were bad looking

 

[thecrew2999]

theres the bearings... it was hard to get a good shot because the camera is ********.
the ones turned sideways are the ones that spun some on the crank. (never had a problem) i think it happened not long ago before it caused problems. as there was no scratches or anything on the rod, rod cap, or crank. it was completely smooth.

soon as i seen this spun bearing my heart sank. turns out the tabs that hold the bearing in place were flat.
those were the worst, worn bearings.

i found one other set in the middle that had 2 little small chunks outta the bearing.

yet again nothing wrong with the crank, rods, or caps.

i rechecked them all tonight and they are all within spec which i made a mistake before thinking one was out.
but the outside ones i noticed were very little wear.

the engine as it sits has 114k miles on it.

the car never had any maintence from what i could tell when i bought it in New Jersey.

the 3.2 cams actually were missing little spots outta them and the engine was pretty dirty, so tells me this person who owned it really didnt care.

im slowly trying to get this car back to life haha.

ok im making this long.... i ramble sometimes

:edit:
also before i forget the bearings arent paired together i lost the pairs so some arent right. except the ones that spun