Rough start now no start

[Blksprk]

Let me preface this, its a 94 MTX. I am a pizza delivery driver, Lots of on and off all day. owned it for about 2 or 3 months.

So it started shortly after I bought the car. Every once and a while the car would have a rough start, 3-4 key turns to start. Seemingly unrelated, it would idle rough until I hit the gas every other day or so. Today it just wouldn't start. I tried and tried. Checked the fuel **** switch in the trunk, didn't help. Finally gave up and left in another car. Came back after reading a lot of post and determined it must be a fuel pump problem given the symptoms, tried the key on and off trick, car revved then died. tried again... instead of a rev, I got a mechanical whir. It sounded like the starter was trying to spin, but not even touching the flywheel.

Did I smoke the starter trying to get it running? Or is it something else?

 

[whiteman_01]

Sounds like your fuel pump died. When you turn the key on you should be able to hear the pump prime, that would be the give away if its not. As for the other problem, you said you tried and tried to get it to start. That sounds to me like the battery is getting weak, and doest have enough in it to kick the bendex out, so the starter just spins.

 

[Bob Gervais]

Sounds like a fuel pump to me, can you hear it running when you turn the key?

 

[Blksprk]

I will check for sound today, I have a bad Blower Control Mod so the vents kick on IMMEDIATELY. I will pull the fuse today and listen for it.

How big a job is it to change the fuel pump? I have about a quarter tank of gas, I know my 94 Explorer has the anti siphon thing, does this? God willing, is there and access panel in the trunk/rear seat area? I know the pump itself is like $70. There is no way I'm taking it to a mechanic, I just need this thing to work.

 

[whiteman_01]

There is no access door, but here are the instructions on how to make one. Not sure on the anti siphon.

http://www.shophoenixproject.com/fueldoor/fueldoor.htm

 

[Blksprk]

OK, so I am even more confused. Let me preface this with "I know its not safe, but I did it anyways" A friend of mine suggested using the valve on the fuel rail to check if I am getting pressure. As I don't have the tool to test it, I did it the backyard method, screwdriver. Much to my surprise, even after releasing all the pressure and then priming again, I still have pressure. Could it still be the fuel pump and its just not giving me enough pressure? My backup car bit the big one so this HAS to get fixed tomorrow.

 

[ViPER1313]

The 'tool to test it' is a $2 to $20 tire pressure gauge. You just need to get one that has a "deeper" opening on the end of it. Lots of 99 cent gauges have a plastic ring that is used to seal the opening of the pressure valve - those wont work. Ones that actually slip over the sides of the schrader valve before pressing on the center stem work perfectly.

IIRC, fuel pressure is supposed to be ~33psi at idle, 39PSI when you rev the motor.

If your car is a rust bucket I would just cut the access panel to change the fuel pump. If not, you can do the following:

To siphon the rest of the gas from the tank the easy way (assuming the fuel pump still works a little bit), just pull the fuel line off of the far end of the fuel filter, push a piece of rubber hose over the opening on the fuel filter and run the other end to a gas can. There is an EEC test port under the hood that you can hook a paper clip up to to cause the fuel pump to run constantly even if the motor isn't running. Turn the key to on and let the fuel pump do all the siphoning for you.

I was able to drop the fuel tank in about 45 min once it was empty - just a few screws and bolts. Your mileage might vary if you have a rusted up car - mine lived in Texas most of it's life.

 

[Blksprk]

I boched... I cut one of the lines under the "access hole" while using a grinder

It was one of the lines that run the length of the opening.... No pressure and no fuel. It runs to a plug that is driver side of the access hole and is connected to the fuel tank. I hope and pray this is... i dont know, like a vapor return line that I can tape... Any help?

PS not my pic. Just to illustrate the lines involved
PPS I did just change the fuel filter

 

[ViPER1313]

One of those is a vapor return line from the motor, one of them (at least on my car) appears to be an over-pressurization vent hose that ends in the plastic grommet above the fuel filter and vents to the atmosphere. They do not carry liquid fuel. You could buy a piece of rubber hose and push both ends of the cut plastic line into it, using it as a connector (maybe epoxy the hose to the lines as well to ensure that they don't leak) - the hose / push together connection just needs to be strong enough to withstand the pressure inside the fuel tank from blowing the lines back apart.

 

[jmpSHO]

I doubt your problem was the fuel pump. If you had fuel at the fuel rail your car should run. You should have boughten a fuel pressure gauge before attempting to replace the pump.

 

[Blksprk]

Well either way, its done, so is the fuel filter and the fuel strainer... and guess what... still no start. I hosed the intake with starting fluid and got nothing, sooo I guess I got no spark. So where does that leave me... CPS, Coils... what do I check next? I lucked out and have a car to use in the mean time so I have time to do diagnostics now and not jump on the first possible solution.

 

[Joe_SHO]

Did you ever try a push start?

 

[Blksprk]

A what?

 

[itwonder]

To bad these posts got you off on the wrong track chasing your tail over a fuel pump that was not the reason for no start because you had pressure at the rail. Start with diagnostics, not parts replacement. See this page
http://www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/eec.htm
Run the KOEO test and see if you have any stored codes. You possibly have a bad CID or CPS. Replace the CID first because it is fairly cheap and easy to do compared to the CPS. But see what the codes say first. If the starter whirs rather than cranking it is not engaging. Could be low battery, connection, or starter itself.

 

[Blksprk]

To bad these posts got you off on the wrong track chasing your tail over a fuel pump that was not the reason for no start because you had pressure at the rail. Start with diagnostics, not parts replacement. See this page
http://www.shophoenixproject.com/eec/eec.htm
Run the KOEO test and see if you have any stored codes. You possibly have a bad CID or CPS. Replace the CID first because it is fairly cheap and easy to do compared to the CPS. But see what the codes say first. If the starter whirs rather than cranking it is not engaging. Could be low battery, connection, or starter itself.

I got:
114 (O,R) IAT sensor out of range - IAT
116 (O,R) Engine Coolant (ECT) sensor out of range - ECT

I know the coolants low, that's no surprise. Not sure about the other one... I unknowingly wiped the stored codes when I tried a different battery because of the starter (dropped my beefy 750cca from my explorer in to no avail) and didn't immediately replace the battery.

As for the starter, when I turn the key, the RPMs rise to around 400 on the tach, so I assume its making contact and spinning the crank, its just not making the engine buck at all like I am used to. And is the DIS the same as the ICM? If I am getting a reading on the tach, could that rule out failure of the Crank Position Sensor? And lastly, I thought I saw a wisp of white smoke coming from the driver side of the engine while trying to start after I replaced the fuel pump... did I smoke the coil?

I am just trying to troubleshoot before I buy more stuff... like I should have done before.

 

[ViPER1313]

The tach is run by the cam position sensor, which is not 100% critical to make your car start (it may take a while to start or run poorly, but the car should eventually start.) Crank position sensor is responsible for engine timing and is 100% necessary for the car to run - you will not get any spark without it.

To verify if you have spark, you can take out one of the spark plugs, plug it back into the spark plug wire and hold the wire (using gloves) while putting the bottom of the spark plug to a piece of grounded metal on the car (intake brackets work OK.) Have someone else crank the car for a few seconds - if you can see sparks on the plug, you at least have some form of spark.

If no spark, verify that both plugs on the DIS are firmly in place (the grey box bolted to the intake manifold crossover tube, passenger side of motor) and that the ground from the firewall to the intake manifold is in place the ends are not corroded.

 

[Blksprk]

Well cold weather prevented me from pulling a plug, but a plug from another car yeilded no spark. Swapped coils with my explorer to no avail. A friend of mine tipped me off to the fact that Murray's tests ICMs and what do you know, it failed both high and low RPM tests. Ordered a used one from RCM, will report back on install. I still can't get over that they want 260 new at Murray's but 140 on RCM and 40 used. Is there anything I need to do when I install the new one? And what's a good way to remove bolts around the DIS that I sheered the heads off of and what's the thread for replacements?

And of other note. My DIS was cracked on the rear connector. Does it really hit that engine mount at high torque?

 

[ViPER1313]

Well cold weather prevented me from pulling a plug, but a plug from another car yeilded no spark. Swapped coils with my explorer to no avail. A friend of mine tipped me off to the fact that Murray's tests ICMs and what do you know, it failed both high and low RPM tests. Ordered a used one from RCM, will report back on install. I still can't get over that they want 260 new at Murray's but 140 on RCM and 40 used. Is there anything I need to do when I install the new one? And what's a good way to remove bolts around the DIS that I sheered the heads off of and what's the thread for replacements?

And of other note. My DIS was cracked on the rear connector. Does it really hit that engine mount at high torque?

To get the bolts off of the DIS you need a 5.5mm socket IIRC (random, I know) - if you already striped them round I think your best bet is some sort of incredibly small bolt extractor. You might be able to cut the heads off the bolts and use some plyers to get them out, depending on how corroded the threads are. When you install the new DIS, make sure that you clean the crossover tube and coat the back of the new DIS with some dielectric grease or heatsink compound before reinstalling it - if you don't the new one will die in short order.

 

[Devin]

You can try a 5/64 drill bit and a #1 screw extractor, but it may be too big. If it'll fit that should take care of it.

If the heads are sheared of completely you may be able to actually slide the DIS off the studs and wrap a pair of vicegrips around 'em.

 

[Blksprk]

So RCM has apparently fell of the maps, no longer responding to e-mail, no shipping information. It has been over 2 weeks and still nothing, I was forced to go to AutoZone and was met with the pleasant surprise of only $130 new. So I ordered theirs and will hopefully end up getting a refund from RCM.

The screws are m4-.7x20, and the best part is they are 7mm heads insted of the original 5.5, so I picked up a set of those and some washers.

The #1 screw extractor was in fact to large, and there seemed to be nothing smaller. In the end, it took a Mini-Torch and some vice grips.

I actually tried the vice grips first, but was out side in about 10degrees, I not only managed to strip the screw smooth, but the screw wore down the teeth on my cheap vice grip from AutoZone. Went to Lowes, disappointed by my stripped vice grips and the screw extractor not fitting. I bought some nice Kobalt needle nose vice grips and a mini-torch. Went home and pulled the intake cross tube out, took it inside, heated up the stripped bolts and they came out LIKE BUTTER!!! The car now starts and runs just fine, all I need to do now is cover the hole over the fuel pump and we are good to go, thank you to everyone for all of your help.