P0411 SAI code

[Zap]

I've finally gotten around to troubleshooting this issue further, and I was curious if anyone has seen an intermittent issue with P0411.

After clearing the code with a reader a few times, it will randomly come back. It has been a few days to as long as a week or more before it reappears, so something seems to be inconsistent.

Has anyone seen this set of symptoms before? I know that the SS relay often goes bad, but that would be a dead, not to return, type failure. The fuse in the fuse box is also good.

I have looked underneath the underbody cover and the pump looks okay from what I can tell, but is there anything else I should check, or should I just get a known good pump and swap it in?

Can it be pulled without dropping the subframe?

Thanks!

 

[stephen newberg]

I have had this problem for a couple of years. No idea what is causing it, as, like yours, it is intermittent and shows up without matching external situations. I have pulled the relay once to clean contacts and such, and another time replaced it. Both times it seemed the problem was gone for a bit and then it returned. The pump appears to be working fine. I have sort of given up on it and now just clear the code whenever it appears. Oh, yes, it sets 3 codes of the 411 each time, rather than a single one.

So, I too would like to have a fix, though, since it appears to have no working effect on the vehicle, I am no longer seriously concerned about it.

pax, smn

 

[Zap]

Since I did not physically use the code reader, I can't confirm whether there was more than one code set. I will have to check and see the next time I have codes read.

I went back and dug some more, as I recalled also hearing about a solenoid that is in the system. Maybe this is intermittent, or there is a leak in a hose which occasionally causes an imbalance depending on the weather.

I'll investigate and report back when I find something.

 

[SHOZ123]

The SAI should drive the O2 sensor lean at startup. The intermittent issues may be the O2 sensor and have nothing to do with the SAI. Now if the SAI codes are electrical that is a different story.

 

[alecracing]

Just bought a '97 and this code popped up. I printed the pinpoint tests off of ALL-DATA. Gotta perform the tests and I'll let you know what I find.:wave:

Gotta change my motor mount first though


I also got a lean code. When I used the data display, I could see it was actually rich (.7-.8) after the second cat ( should be between .4-.6)

 

[Zap]

The SAI should drive the O2 sensor lean at startup. The intermittent issues may be the O2 sensor and have nothing to do with the SAI. Now if the SAI codes are electrical that is a different story.

I've wondered this as well - but then again I have never seen an O2 sensor code, so I figured one would be thrown if the sensor was not operating properly. I can't say that I have a record from the previous owner showing the O2s were ever changed. I'm up at 126k now, so it is possible.

Next time I'm able, maybe I'll pull the connectors for all the sensors and clean them as well.

 

[SHOZ123]

I doubt if you would see an O2 code as this is the time as the PCM is not looking at them because of open loop start up conditions. As long as there is heater current to the O2 then it would think all is Oky Doky.

The idea of adding O2 to the exhaust is to create more heat and warm up the O2s/cats faster.

 

[Zap]

Well, I finally felt well enough AND had some spare time, so I decided to poke around the engine bay and see if I could chase this any further. I started up the engine, and went underneath to see if the pump was running. I found the inlet tube, and did feel a small amount of air moving, though I can't be 100% sure it wasn't blowing out instead of in.. is that even possible?

The airflow did not stop after 30 sec - 1 minute, either. Have these specific symptoms been seen before, and if so, any thoughts?

Thanks a bunch!

 

[stephen newberg]

I think that is only supposed to be an intake, and I also think it should bring in a small volume all the time, though I will defer to anyone with better information.

pax, smn

 

[alecracing]

The computer turns the pump on at certain times to pump oxygen (air) into the exhaust at the exhaust manifolds. This helps the catalytic converters to work more efficiently. I don't know when it does it, but I do know that I hear the pump come on everytime I first start the car and it goes off after a couple minutes.

The air goes through rubber hosing up to underneath the throttle body area where the rubber hose attaches to a check valve and splits off to metal piping that splits and goes to each exhaust manifold.

I took the rubber hose off the check valve and felt air pumping out. Next step would be to undo one off the metal pipes at the exhaust manifold and check for air. It's the end of the school year for me so I will be busy grading papers till the endof school June 10th. I plan on going through the pinpoint tests then to check everything.

 

[Zap]

Does anyone know if there is a diagram or pictures somewhere that show the connection points for the SAI system? I'm poking around with a bright trouble light, but there is so much stuff wedged in that area of the engine bay I can't trace things correctly. I'm not sure when I'll get it back up on a lift, so if there is anything else I can inspect in the meantime, that would be fantastic. At this point, I'd like to isolate the pump by verifying everything else.

Does anyone know if the metal hoses that come in right at the top of the exhaust manifolds part of the SAI system, or do those connect to the EGR system somewhere?

Once I get around to dismantling everything, I'll try and snap some pictures, since this seems to be one of those areas that is a nagging problem but not as well documented.

 

[SHOZ123]

The hose leaves the pump and travels along the subframe to the rear side of the motor. Then comes up to the air diverter solenoid under the surge tank on the drivers side. It then branches off to the metal tubes that pump the air into both exhaust manifolds.

 

[St Louis SHO]

Buy a SCT tuner, and have the AIR pump deleted from the tune. lol Thats what I did.

 

[medgraphsho]

Hi Paul, Thanks for that great pic... I have a P1413 code, aux emission Should I replace this diverter soleniod? Do you have that piece for sale?
Or is it the relay? Thanks

 

[Zap]

Bill - this might be helpful, it looks like in your case it may be the solenoid (most likely), or wiring to it that is suspect.

OBD-II Code Data - P1413
Secondary AIR System Monitor Circuit Malfunction

Setting Conditions

Secondary AIR solenoid power (B+) circuit is open
Secondary AIR solenoid circuit is shorted to ground
Secondary AIR pump damaged
Solid State relay is damaged
PCM has failed

Engine started, engine running with AIR system "off", and the PCM detected an unexpected "low" voltage condition on the Secondary AIR monitor during the CCM test.
This code sets in 2 Trip(s).

 

[Zap]

Paul,

I second the thanks for the fantastic pictures! It looks like the diverter is vacuum powered from what I can see. Is there also a wiring connector on it? I'm wondering if the vacuum line might be deficient or loose, or if the rubber hose is loose for that matter.

One of my next steps is going to be pulling the exhaust line off the pump to see if it is actually blowing air with enough force. That should either pinpoint or excuse it from being the issue.

 

[SHOZ123]

The diverter is vacuum powered and that is what the solenoid does, switches the vacuum on and off. It has been my experience that it is usually the relay that is bad though. Stupid place to put one.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

P0411, if the pump runs and cycles off, is almost always water or debris in the pump. Blow it out with high-pressure compressed air. I've never seen the SAI solenoid or vacuum valve fail.

If the pump runs continuously when the car is running, the relay is bad.

 

[medgraphsho]

P0411, if the pump runs and cycles off, is almost always water or debris in the pump. Blow it out with high-pressure compressed air. I've never seen the SAI solenoid or vacuum valve fail.

If the pump runs continuously when the car is running, the relay is bad.

P1413 is my problem Chris, what would most likely be the cause? Solid state relay as well? Im not sure if my air pump is turning on anymore and it is sluggish at idle and acceleration.

 

[medgraphsho]

Bill - this might be helpful, it looks like in your case it may be the solenoid (most likely), or wiring to it that is suspect.

OBD-II Code Data - P1413
Secondary AIR System Monitor Circuit Malfunction

Setting Conditions

Secondary AIR solenoid power (B+) circuit is open
Secondary AIR solenoid circuit is shorted to ground
Secondary AIR pump damaged
Solid State relay is damaged
PCM has failed

Engine started, engine running with AIR system "off", and the PCM detected an unexpected "low" voltage condition on the Secondary AIR monitor during the CCM test.
This code sets in 2 Trip(s).

Where is soleniod located? How can I get to easily?