New Engine?

[Deuce5150]

Hello,

I was informed today by the mechanic that the water pump failed on my 2011 SHO. He said he could replace it and the timing chain, but that it would be a band aid fix as the motor would and turbos likely fail in the future due to coolant getting in there. He recommended a new engine.

Has anybody had experience with this? Is a new engine an overreaction? Could I rebuild the current engine? What parts would I be looking to replace?

Any help you could provide would be invaluable. I'm only slightly mechanically inclined, but have friends who are very knowledgeable and capable.

Thanks!

 

[4sfed]

Is he basing his assertion on the motor and turbo's failing, on any indicators? I mean, of COURSE they're going to fail...at SOME point. They ARE a mechanical thing; and mechanical things fail. But is there loss of compression? Contamination in the oil or coolant? Engine noise?

With no indications of engine or turbo issues, I'd call BS. I think he's hedging his bets; either he wants to make a mortgage payment, or he doesn't want to do the water pump job.

 

[Deuce5150]

The scenario leading up to this diagnosis is as follows:

Driving and noticed a rough idle when stopped in and in drive. The temp light came on and I pulled over to shut it off. I checked and the coolant was empty. I walked to a store and bought a jug of pre-mixed coolant and filled it back up. Started it up and all was well - for a block. Then the oil pressure light came on and the car died. I got it to the side of the road and pulled the dipstick. Grey, milky oil. So, I had it towed to the shop. I believe him that there was coolant in the oil, but I don't know how far he got into it to make this determination. I may have it loaded up and taken elsewhere for a second opinion.

 

[luigisho]

Or he is hedging by letting you know that it is possible, and has happened that failed water pumps have led to engine damage and failure. Now you are warned that the easier repair may not remedy the damage for long enough in your mind and still require a new engine after you shelled out the heavy repair money. Do some research on the web, asking here is good, and then you have to make a cost and risk assessment with no real certainty just your best guess.

 

[luigisho]

IF you went through 2 cooling systems worth of 50/50 mix and there isn't a ton on the ground that's not good. The waterpump failures are reporting internal leakage and not external from what I have read around here and ecoboost forums. You need to post over there as well, since the 3.5 eco is in several platforms (flex, mks, et al) and all have similar failure issues. Tap into a broader pool of ecoboost owners. Alot of the guys here are over on other boards also.

 

[Deuce5150]

Yeah, there was no puddle to speak of. I'll join up over there as well and beg for help.

 

[4sfed]

The scenario leading up to this diagnosis is as follows:

Driving and noticed a rough idle when stopped in and in drive. The temp light came on and I pulled over to shut it off. I checked and the coolant was empty. I walked to a store and bought a jug of pre-mixed coolant and filled it back up. Started it up and all was well - for a block. Then the oil pressure light came on and the car died. I got it to the side of the road and pulled the dipstick. Grey, milky oil. So, I had it towed to the shop. I believe him that there was coolant in the oil, but I don't know how far he got into it to make this determination. I may have it loaded up and taken elsewhere for a second opinion.

AH! Okay....I missed that in the intial post. So yeah....sounds like there's more at play here than just a water pump failure.

 

[luigisho]

Yeah, there was no puddle to speak of. I'll join up over there as well and beg for help.

There are a few. Block out some time and see what you can come up with. Either way isn't cheap so dig around

 

[6500rpm]

A couple quick and simples if it's not too late would be to open up the oil filter and inspect inside the pleats for bearing material. And second (which might be a problem if you've already drained the crank case) would be to drain off as much of the water (coolant) as possible (by now with it sitting it's going to have separated from the oil) and send a oil sample to Blackstone for a report and let them know what's taken place. If you can get a good oil sample they may be able to tell you from the metals found in it if you're likely to have bearing damage. I'm trying to do a Blackstone on mine one a year just to get an idea what's going on inside, and if the pump was starting to leak when the sample was taken it would have shown on the report. If the bearings haven't taken a beating you may be alright. If it were me doing the work on my own car, that's what I'd do, and if nothing was found in the filter/report I'd fix the pump and install a new chain and tensioner and do two quick fill and oil changes with whatever oil is cheap and a third with a good oil and mobil 1 filter and possibly send another sample after about 1k miles to see if anything bad shows up. GM recommends 2 oil changes for mild water ingestion and diesel fuel contamination (people accidently putting diesel in their tank). If it didn't get stupid hot, and the bearings didn't starve you might get lucky...engines aren't cheap.

 

[rubydist]

The key variable here, to which you likely don't know the answer, is how long was the coolant leaking into the oil?

The MKZ that I now have I bought cheap because it had a waterpump failure, which the guy had replaced along with the timing chain at about 150k. I bought it at about 157k because it had developed a rod knock, so he dumped it. Before I could get new rod bearings installed, it spun a bearing so I ended up putting in a jy motor. (Even having done that, I still own it right, so that's not the point of the story.) My guess is the guy drove it till it gave him the low coolant light, because he likely didn't check the oil like he should have, so he didn't see that the oil was getting more full and more milky.

So, if the coolant was only in there for a short time (like the wp seal failed quickly), and if you didn't drive it hard during that time, then there is a fair chance that the bearings are not damaged badly and it will be okay for quite a while yet. However, if the coolant was mixed in the oil for a long time, then there is a good chance that there is significant bearing damage.

Since you likely are no longer able to do the oil analysis suggested above, the other reasonable choice you have is to pull the #1 rod bearing and have a look at it. Its possible that a rod bearing change would be all it really needed. (I say #1 rod bearing because that is closest to the oil pump, and imho will see the most damage from coolant contamination since there has not been a chance for the coolant to boil out of the oil stream.)

I have not seen what coolant contamination does to turbos, so someone else will need to address that concern.

The point is you need to have more evaluation done on the engine to know if it needs rebuilt/replaced or if its ok.

 

[sperold]

While you can still use plain old water in your cooling system, I would fill it back up and get it running to see if there are head gasket issues. If that proved OK, the water pump change would be a good thing.

You have to figure out why it stopped after you filled your cooling system back up.

Did your crank case have 2 X as much milky oil as it should have had?

A used engine replacement will be about the same cost as the water pump, but then you have all the issues of the swap.

There are codes stored in your system that will tell you a story as well.

I would try to save the original engine.

If the engine has to come out to do this job, (it may be the easiest method) then recondition the turbos while you are at it.

 

[SHOdded]

How many miles on your SHO before this happened?

Seems like the oil and coolant mixed for a very short period of time, so the engine and turbos should be fine. Inspect the turbos closely at the time repairs are performed. They should not have any impeller or housing damage, nor make ANY noise when rotated by hand. Not like you have to drop a motor in to change them out, so it's worth a risk. Highly recommend a change out of the coolant and oil feed lines to both turbos though right away, just in case there is material caught in the screens.

Definitely do multiple oil and coolant changes in short order after the repair, Blackstone-ing each changeout. That way you have a baseline for the future.

 

[luigisho]

I agree with rubydist above and you should, at minimum, inspect the rod bearings.

 

[Deuce5150]

I think trying to save the current engine will be my course of action. From the time I notice the rough idle to the time I shut it off for good I probably drove for less than two miles and at low rpms.

I have just over 113,000 miles on it now. I'm hoping that a water pump, timing chain and thorough inspection of the bearings and turbos will get me back on the road. I'm planning on getting the oil tested regularly. I'm not sure if it has been drained or not. If not, I will be sure to get an initial test.

 

[Deuce5150]

Any advice on how to drop the engine out of the bottom without a lift?

 

[rubydist]

you should not need to drop the engine to inspect the rod bearings.

if you drop the whole cradle/subframe w/ engine and trans, you need the front of the car off the ground at least two and a half feet. you may be able to find jackstands that tall, but it would be a little dicey.

 

[Deuce5150]

you should not need to drop the engine to inspect the rod bearings.

That is good news. Can I do a timing chain/water pump and inspect turbos with dropping it as well?

 

[rubydist]

On the Fusion platform, its about the same amount of time to do the wp in the car as dropping engine. I'm not sure on the Taurus platform if it can be done in the car - someone else will need to chime in on that.

 

[SHOdded]

Typically a 14 hour booktime job to do the water pump on a Taurus/MKS or Edge/MKX. And yes, that is in-car.

 

[Deuce5150]

or he doesn't want to do the water pump job

This appears to be the correct assumption. After talking back and forth with them, I couldn't even get an estimate. He insisted that it was all ruined and "I don't know why you would want to throw money at it when it's ruined" Meanwhile, he never to took the time to actually look to see if it is ruined. I had it picked up and towed back to my house.

So, I get to take apart my engine. My brother (who has rebuilt countless engines) is going to help me out with a new water pump, timing chain and inspecting/replacing bearings and looking at the turbos. It sounds daunting, but he says it is not as bad is it seems. I'm excited to get in there and learn a thing or two.