Fuel Pump Update?? Do I have issues...?

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boat

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Well, after replacing that white piece (evap valve), my SHO starts so much easier than it did. So I think it does have some bearing on the way the car runs. The schrader valve does not squirt even after replacing that evap valve after the car is off, like not holding pressure in the fuel rail. But like I said, it starts so much easier and runs/idles so much smoother now. Could the check valve on the fuel pump be bad, thus being the reason no fuel pressure in the rail.
 

Eric VerValin

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Nobody knows??? A new fuel pump.. all lines look cool.. and after just a few seconds of the car being off.. 0 fuel comes out the valve...

Could it be a bad check valve in the pump?! Or a bad regulator? Not really sure what holds the pressure in there...
 

boat

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I am not sure whether it is a fuel pump, or fuel pressure regulator? The car this morning still started difficult, like taking several tries to get it to finally get enough fuel to stay running. Once it had fuel it was running fine. HOWEVER, when I go to accelerate quickly, it feels like there is still some hesitation... My boss thought maybe it was the fuel pressure regulator.

Anyone have any ideas? :shrug:



Nobody knows??? A new fuel pump.. all lines look cool.. and after just a few seconds of the car being off.. 0 fuel comes out the valve...

Could it be a bad check valve in the pump?! Or a bad regulator? Not really sure what holds the pressure in there...
 

St Louis SHO

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Its gotta be a leaky injector or the check valve *in* the fuel pump is bad. I highley doubt the FPR is bad. Pull the vacuum line off the regulator and see if it is leaking fuel.

- James
 

boat

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If it were a leaking injector, wouldn't I smell fuel? Forgive my ignorance, do I pull that vacuum while the car is off? Or running?

Its gotta be a leaky injector or the check valve *in* the fuel pump is bad. I highley doubt the FPR is bad. Pull the vacuum line off the regulator and see if it is leaking fuel.

- James
 
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St Louis SHO

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Running is the best way. If an injector were leaking it'd run like **** until warmed up (usually) The real way to test the injectors would be with a breakout box and afuel pressure gauge. You would do what they call a drop test on those and see what the drop is per injector. My bet is the FP is bad, but then again I'm just guessing without real data from a FP gauge.
 

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I don't own a FP gauge. I will probably have to buy one... Eric doesn't have one either. His buddy does though. The fuel pressure gauge will tell me more than what I know now...

Running is the best way. If an injector were leaking it'd run like **** until warmed up (usually) The real way to test the injectors would be with a breakout box and afuel pressure gauge. You would do what they call a drop test on those and see what the drop is per injector. My bet is the FP is bad, but then again I'm just guessing without real data from a FP gauge.
 

Eric VerValin

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It's kinda hard to get him to part with that guage, as its a CAT guage, and I know he paid dearly for it... lol But when its in my hand's I'll let ya know.

And.. here's the best part..... we put new seals on all of his injectors... AND his FP is new. Maybe when they put the FP back together they put it together wrong somehow? been awhile since I swapped my FP, and I can't remember what it looks like sitting in the assembly.

And drop per injector huh... I'm assuming you mean voltage drop across the injector? Can't you test that when its off, and get a resistance value out of each of them? I guess I'm curious where it would leak?
 
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Would there be a way of just going out to his house this evening, and measuring my fuel pressure? I am off at 4 today, then hopefully going to have my tips welded on to my mufflers. I will give ya a call...

It's kinda hard to get him to part with that guage, as its a CAT guage, and I know he paid dearly for it... lol But when its in my hand's I'll let ya know.

And.. here's the best part..... we put new seals on all of his injectors... AND his FP is new. Maybe when they put the FP back together they put it together wrong somehow? been awhile since I swapped my FP, and I can't remember what it looks like sitting in the assembly.

And drop per injector huh... I'm assuming you mean voltage drop across the injector? Can't you test that when its off, and get a resistance value out of each of them? I guess I'm curious where it would leak?
 

St Louis SHO

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No, you test the injector drops with the pump priming, then "tickle" it with voltage. The pressure drop on each one will tell you if you have a bad one, IE: one will drop 10psi, then the next drops 20psi... You get the picture.
 

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Not exactly sure what you mean by "tickle" but in theory I get the idea, I think. Pump priming, key in ignition turned to on, but the engine not running? In actuallity of doing it, I am not sure how to do that, maybe Eric knows...
 

AREA 91

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You must find out what your fuel pressure is first or you will be chasing your tail. Get a guage on there and report back. I have faith in ya! Been there, done that.:salute:
 

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I caved in and bought a fuel pressure gauge. When I prime the motor, the gauge reads "0". When the car is running, it reads: around 15-17psi. I repeated this process twice... same results both times.

I have done a little research on the forum in the advanced search, "hold fuel pressure", but without the quotes. From what I have read in what others have posted it is pretty much exactly how my car is running right now, especially compared to the 3rd and 4th threads in that search, where it talks about hesitating and bogging down while accelerating. Taking 3-5 trys to get the car to start when it is cold. Then when it is hot runs, irregular and rough and boggs really bad.

From what I read, what I see on the gauge, and what I have experienced, I think I need to get a new fuel pump (again). I purchased a Cardone, from RCM, I want a return and refund. I am thinking of going with this one as the replacement:
http://shosource.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=41{2}116

Am I thinking along the right lines??
 
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St Louis SHO

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Any replacement pump will be fine. I said it needed a pump a while back, but a gauge is the best thing to have :) I've seen several pumps bad out of the box.....

- James
 

Storm-Chaser

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Let me please apologize for whomever ****** in your wheaties the other morning.

Yes, even I am human and ocasionally make a typo. Fuel Evaporization Valve, Fuel Check Valve, whatever. The point was to contact goalieman about the symptoms he experienced when his fuel evaporization valve failed.

And who said anything about fuel delivery or return?

My understanding is that the purpose, is to maintain proper pressure in the fuel tank while preventing fuel evaporization.

The symptoms are the same as what goalieman experience, if my memory serves me correctly. However, instead of potentially providing incorrect information, I thought I would direct him to the person who actually experienced them.

Excuse me for trying to be helpful


. . . .


That white piece on the top of the fuel tank has nothing to do with fuel delivery or return. It is part of the evaporative emissions system and has no bearing on the operation of the engine. It is not a "fuel check valve".

Steve
 

Storm-Chaser

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Mike,
Sorry for not jumping in this sooner. Eric has my number.

First, fuel pressure should be 33-39 psi during a static pressure test. Running, I believe it is suppose to be 28-42 psi minus 1/2 the manifold vacuum pressure. Thus with increasing rpm and/or load, there should be a drop in fuel pressure at the rail.

Second, the Fuel Pressure Regulator controls pressure at the fuel rail by controling return fuel flow to the fuel tank. It regulates rail pressure by adjusting return flow based on the manifold pressure.

Third, if I remember correctly, pressure at the fuel rail after the engine is shut-off should be a minimum of 20 psi after 5 minutes [key off].

So, it appears that the problem may be the pressure regulator. If it were a weak fuel pump, while pressure at the fuel rail would be low and cause the symptoms you're experiencing, pressure at the fuel rail would not immediately drop to 0 psi after the pump is deenergized. With a bad pressure regulator, pressure at the rail while the engine is running would reflect the free-flowing system pressure with no restrictions to build pressure at the fuel rail. But, . . . .

Eric stated that only the pump was replaced. It is possible, that if the pump was not properly mounted within the sending unit, that fuel is leaking at the point where the pump is [trying to] feeding the fuel feed line. Additionally, if there is a "leak" there, it would allow for rapid pressure bleed-off as there is nothing to prevent the fuel from free-flowing back into the tank, once the fuel pump is deenergized.

Between when the car was running fine and now, you've had both the fuel rail out to change injector seals, and the fuel sending unit to replace the fuel pump. If the problem began immediately after you replaced the injector seals, it would suggest the fuel rail/pressure regulator as the problem.

You might want to post some links to your prior threads on the injector seals change and the fuel pump change for reference.


So there's two ways to approach this. One, try a known good pressure regulator from another running SHO, where you can test the fuel pressure prior to removing it and installing it in your SHO. Two, drop the tank and try a known good fuel pump/sending unit from another running SHO, where you can test the fuel pressure prior to removing it and installing it in your SHO.

In my opinion, the latter would be the easier of the two in terms of the amount of wrenching required - *and* you can leave the fuel tank on the ground while you're swapping/running the tests until you know you have fixed the problem. Swapping the regulator will require at least two removal/installs of the intake and aft fuel rail.

Then recheck the fuel rail pressure.


Fuel filter didn't fix the problem either.... It is holding no pressure in the lines after the car is off. While running, (when it does), it holds just enough to run and not very well either. Sometimes dies. Stumbles at 3500 rpm. SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP ME!!!


I caved in and bought a fuel pressure gauge. When I prime the motor, the gauge reads "0". When the car is running, it reads: around 15-17psi. I repeated this process twice... same results both times.

I have done a little research on the forum in the advanced search, "hold fuel pressure", but without the quotes. From what I have read in what others have posted it is pretty much exactly how my car is running right now, especially compared to the 3rd and 4th threads in that search, where it talks about hesitating and bogging down while accelerating. Taking 3-5 trys to get the car to start when it is cold. Then when it is hot runs, irregular and rough and boggs really bad.

From what I read, what I see on the gauge, and what I have experienced, I think I need to get a new fuel pump (again). I purchased a Cardone, from RCM, I want a return and refund. I am thinking of going with this one as the replacement:
http://shosource.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=41{2}116

Am I thinking along the right lines??
 

Eric VerValin

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The crappy part is, I'm pretty sure my FP is on the way out, and I know mine bleeds off, after 6 hours or so... :) Otherwise I'd say use my FP to see..

And I don't recall it ever acting funny at all after we changed the injector seals.. but then again.. mine is bleeding off too, just not anywhere near as fast.. and there were others here on the forum who said they used the same seals on their cars, and didn't have any issues, so I think we can rule that one out. Stranger things have happened tho.
 

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Thank you for the help, Storm-Chaser. One problem is one guy here in Ft Wayne, his SHO is in the shop (trans), and Eric lives a good 30 minutes from me. If I am going to deal with this and get it fixed, I need to order yet another part and get it before the weekend. I just don't want to drive this like it is for another 2 weeks. Enimeni mini mo, fuel pump or pressure regulator?

I have been trying for the last 3-4 weeks to get my front 60k done, and something keeps popping up and taking the time away from getting it done (welcome to life right?), drivin me nuts! Sorry, just a little moaning and wailing there, but I will be fine, especially once this fuel issue gets worked out.

Maybe my SHO has *** :nut:



Mike,
Sorry for not jumping in this sooner. Eric has my number.

First, fuel pressure should be 33-39 psi during a static pressure test. Running, I believe it is suppose to be 28-42 psi minus 1/2 the manifold vacuum pressure. Thus with increasing rpm and/or load, there should be a drop in fuel pressure at the rail.

Second, the Fuel Pressure Regulator controls pressure at the fuel rail by controling return fuel flow to the fuel tank. It regulates rail pressure by adjusting return flow based on the manifold pressure.

Third, if I remember correctly, pressure at the fuel rail after the engine is shut-off should be a minimum of 20 psi after 5 minutes [key off].

So, it appears that the problem may be the pressure regulator. If it were a weak fuel pump, while pressure at the fuel rail would be low and cause the symptoms you're experiencing, pressure at the fuel rail would not immediately drop to 0 psi after the pump is deenergized. With a bad pressure regulator, pressure at the rail while the engine is running would reflect the free-flowing system pressure with no restrictions to build pressure at the fuel rail. But, . . . .

Eric stated that only the pump was replaced. It is possible, that if the pump was not properly mounted within the sending unit, that fuel is leaking at the point where the pump is [trying to] feeding the fuel feed line. Additionally, if there is a "leak" there, it would allow for rapid pressure bleed-off as there is nothing to prevent the fuel from free-flowing back into the tank, once the fuel pump is deenergized.

Between when the car was running fine and now, you've had both the fuel rail out to change injector seals, and the fuel sending unit to replace the fuel pump. If the problem began immediately after you replaced the injector seals, it would suggest the fuel rail/pressure regulator as the problem.

You might want to post some links to your prior threads on the injector seals change and the fuel pump change for reference.


So there's two ways to approach this. One, try a known good pressure regulator from another running SHO, where you can test the fuel pressure prior to removing it and installing it in your SHO. Two, drop the tank and try a known good fuel pump/sending unit from another running SHO, where you can test the fuel pressure prior to removing it and installing it in your SHO.

In my opinion, the latter would be the easier of the two in terms of the amount of wrenching required - *and* you can leave the fuel tank on the ground while you're swapping/running the tests until you know you have fixed the problem. Swapping the regulator will require at least two removal/installs of the intake and aft fuel rail.

Then recheck the fuel rail pressure.
 

mccrash

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if u r haveing pressure troubles check the pressure if its a lil low and u know the pump and filters good theres a great chance that its the fuel damper.if that goes bad your pressure will b ok til u hit the gas then it ll drop like a stone
 

shoshirtsandhat

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Vice grip your fuel return line and I bet your car runs great.

When I had the same exact problem you are dealing with I cut the access panel to my fuel pump under the rear seat because I was tired of replacing the pump. I vise gripped the smaller of the 2 lines and started the car ( I noticed a big change immediately)and drove it up and down my street and it ran like a bat outtahell because I had plenty of solid fuel pressure and the return was blocked from me losing pressure,,,needless to say the MAF was returning my fuel pressure to the tank apparently to soon , when the car needed the pressure most it was being returned...You said you cleaned the MAF ,but did you swap it out with another one???????
 
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