Engine cranks but abruptly stops before start (with video)

[rigol2000]

This SHO is a 94 ATX. Yesterday, I tried to start it but could not. When I turn the key, it cranks a few times but suddenly stops turning over. One of the tries, it did start but killed a second or two later.

I removed the accessory belt in case one of the pulleys froze. I tried to start, and it did. It ran fine for a few minutes. I packed it up because it was getting dark.

Today, before I put the belt back on, I tried it again. This time, with out the accessory belt, it stopped during cranking. Same problem.

The link below is to a short video of it trying to start. Maybe someone has heard the same thing. This is without the accessory belt on. It turns over a couple times then suddenly stops.

94 ATX Link

Thanks,
Chris

 

[sdpatt]

Cylinder IDentification (CID) sensor (a.k.a. camshaft position sensor). You can check for, and should find, the code for the CID sensor. It is secured to the passenger of the rear bank exhaust camshaft by two 5.5mm (7/32") bolts.

Cylinder Ident. Sensor (CID), Wells F134, AutoZone $28.99

 

[socialdeviat]

sounds bad.

I sure hope it didn't skip a timing belt tooth.

But definitly sounds very wrong.

 

[rigol2000]

I was thinking my CPS(CID). I wanted to make sure though since I suck as a mechanic. I forgot to mention that I can't get my engine codes because my check engine light is not working. Maybe I'll fix that too while I'm at it.

Thanks

 

[ohfosho]

did you pull the codes? they could help, so long as you havent unhooked the battery. what maintenance has been done to your car? sensors changed in the last 100 k?

 

[rigol2000]

I haven't been able to pull the codes since my check engine light doesn't work. Since I purchased the car a little over two years ago, I've driven it about 8,000 miles. I had the 60k performed 7,000 miles ago along with a few other repairs like:
Rear brake calipers and pads
Rear flexible brake hoses
Metal brake lines
Spark plugs
All plug wires
Valve cover & Plug well seals
Intake Manifold Gaskets
Thermostat
Timing belt
Water Pump
Radiator and radiator hose
Crank Position Sensor
Front main seal
Front and Rear engine mounts
Transmission mount
Accessory belt
Fog lights
Alternator
Sub frame bushings

Since then, the usual oil changes. That's about it. I need to do some research on how to replace my check engine light.

 

[ohfosho]

well you should pull your gauge cluster and replace the bulb (if that is all that is wrong), and then you can read your codes.

otherwise get a code reader... i think they can be had for $50 or less for the cheapies...

you did not mention if the CID (cam position sensor) was changed, this can cause stalling issues (it did on my car. the CPS acted up 2 months later... so i know the symptoms).

this could be an issue of 2 problems at once i think... the timing belt might have been put on at the wrong markings (or off of its markings), and the CID could be dead.

the computer controls the timing, so when you start the car, it is a preset, then the sensors start outputing and the computer adjusts settings for best fuel mileage, and running conditions. but if the timing is off to start, (the belt installed at wrong marks, or not on the marks), and the computer could be putting the timing further out of whack...

 

[rigol2000]

The terminology gets confusing. I'm a little confused.
I think we're talking about two parts here, but I want to be sure which. For example, Phoenix Project lists these two parts:
Crankshaft position sensor (CPS) #6 on the front 60k list
Cylinder Identification Sensor (Camshaft Position Sensor) #9 on the front 60k list
Which one are we talking about?

In my mind, the Cam Position Sensor is located on the passenger side rear of engine partially obscured by the steering pump pulley.

 

[sho'd]

The terminology gets confusing. I'm a little confused.
I think we're talking about two parts here, but I want to be sure which. For example, Phoenix Project lists these two parts:
Crankshaft position sensor (CPS) #6 on the front 60k list
Cylinder Identification Sensor (Camshaft Position Sensor) #9 on the front 60k list
Which one are we talking about?

In my mind, the Cam Position Sensor is located on the passenger side rear of engine partially obscured by the steering pump pulley.

the cam sensor is the little puck shaped sensor on the passanger side rear head. that is the one i believe you need to replace. the crankshaft sensor is covered by the lower timing cover, so you can't see it. i know sometimes it can be confusing, you'll get the hang of all the terminoligy, we were all there at one point. good luck.

 

[Eric VerValin]

Wait wait.. can't you put a bulb inline between the signal input and the other one.. lol whatever its called?

Ghetto diagram...

EEC connector -----------Bulb-----------Signal input return


or even a test light maybe? can anyone confirm this? Or just replace the bulb..

 

[rigol2000]

the cam sensor is the little puck shaped sensor on the passanger side rear head. that is the one i believe you need to replace. the crankshaft sensor is covered by the lower timing cover, so you can't see it. i know sometimes it can be confusing, you'll get the hang of all the terminoligy, we were all there at one point. good luck.

OK, in that case, my crankshaft sensor was replaced with the 60k, not the cam sensor. Since I will need to replace this, I will change the seal also since there is a very very small oil leak from back there.

Thanks!

Yes, when I get the chance, I will try to replace that bulb. There's always a first for everything!

 

[93rev2sev]

Sounds out of time.

 

[ohfosho]

yes it could very well still be out of time. you should replace the cam sensor (in the SHO world it is called CID for short of Cylinder Identification) anyway for preventative maintenance. there are 3 cam seals if you are going as far as to replace them. you have to pull the cam sprockets to do it too.

 

[sdpatt]

It ran fine for a few minutes.

It is not "out of time."

Here is a picture of the CID sensor location. You can replace it without removing the timing belt cover.

 

[HotRodKid]

cid sensor and cam seals re two VERY different levels of work

 

[rigol2000]

This week end, I'm going to replace the bulb for my check engine light so I can pull the codes. I want to be sure before I dive into this learning experience. I'll let ya'll know what I find.

 

[rigol2000]

:type: UPDATE :type:


OK... I got my check engine light working. Come to find out, there was no bulb in that slot at all. I guess a previous owner got tired of seeing the CE light on and had someone remove it. I took the bulb from the seatbelt slot and used it for CE. While taking all that stuff apart, I found a few other issues, but that's for another thread.

I tried to start my car a few times after I connected the battery so I can get some codes in the computer. I tried three times. The first it started and died. The second and third, it didn't start. These are the codes I got from doing a Key On Engine Off test:

327 EGR feedback signal is/was low - EVR or PFE
564 Fan Control (FC) circuit failure - A/C and Fann Circuits (Isn't this supposed to be a Engine On test code?)


Then from memory:
212 Ignition TACH signal was erratic (module/wiring) or SPOUT circuit fault - Ignition Systems
214 Error in Cylinder ID (CID) circuit or signal - Ignition Systems


I was not able to do a Key On Engine On test since I can't get it to start. So does this line up with what we were thinking earlier? I think the last thought was the Cam Pos Sensor as pictured in sdpatt's post.


Thanks for your help.

 

[shoteen95]

Does seem to sound logical.

From www.shotimes.com

There is FMEM for loss of CID. Typically, CID is only needed during cranking to establish fuel injector and ignition synchronization, however, EEC monitors CID in the background. EEC will set a code and illuminate the CEL if CID is lost after the engine is running. If the CID sensor output is flaky, IOW, if edges are unstable, inconsistant, or missing, the engine may run rough, or may not run at all. Loss of CID FMEM is split between EEC and DIS. Each time you crank the engine, DIS makes a guess on ignition timing. (DIS uses a custom variant of a Moto 6800 micro to manage ignition functions) Since there's only 3 possible combinations, the engine should start in three tries or less. EEC may or may not get the fuel injector synchronization right, which is why the engine may not run well after starting with a missing or bad CID.

 

[rigol2000]

I ordered the CID. I'll let yall know how it goes.

I remember seeing an article on how to change the CID from the wheelwell, but I can't seem to find it. Does anyone remember seeing that?

 

[socialdeviat]

Also another tip for ya.

CPS = Cam Position Sensor or CID on the forums

CPK = Crank Position sensor

CPS is a 5 min job even your first time. Easier if you have the 5.5mm bolts.
Mine had philips screws so that was a pain.