CID CPS question

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HighBall

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I have a few issues with my car. When it is cold, I have no trouble starting it, but when it is hot, I have to crank it for about two minutes. While cranking if I hit the gas pedal it will lock up the engine and stop turning over, or start up with rough idle a very low rpms.

This points to the CID I believe, BUT when the car finally starts, the tach is at zero but it runs fine with the check engine light on. When the car cools off It will start right back up, with no CE light, and the tach is fine.

I have no known coolant leaks, and just replaced the fuel filter.

Could the CID be throwing off the CPS, or is it possible that they both went at the same time?
 

HighBall

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Here are the codes I ran after resetting the computer and driving.

KOEO
Hard faults- 111-system pass
Memory codes
212 - Ignition TACH signal was erratic (module/wiring) or SPOUT circuit fault

214 - Error in Cylinder ID (CID) circuit or signal

KOER
136 - Oxygen sensor not switching/system lean Left or Front HO2S

167 - 167 No Throttle Position sensor change in "goose" test (must get at least 25% rotation)

225 - Knock sensor not tested (ignore if not pinging)
 

rangerj

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HB,

The CID (Cylinder Identification), or commonly called the camshaft position sensor, code could be due to a failing sensor or due to a connection or wiring problem. Unplug the sensor and get a look at the connection. Is it corroded?

The same is true for the SPOUT or Spark Output of the ECU (TFI or DIS). Check your connections at the DIS. The 212 code could indicate a grounding of the signal wire.

See my posts a few months back where the tests for the DIS, and the associated sensors, are layed out in a step by step fashion.

The O2 sensor has stopped switching and is staying in the lean indication . The computer will make up for this by making your mixture a little rich. The rich mixture is great for a cold engine, but is a "flooding" situation for a warm engine.

In this instance the code indicates that the connection and wiring are good because the computer is getting a signal from the O2 sensor. The O2 sensor needs to be replaced. rangerj
 

HighBall

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Wow, your like a walking textbook! Thanks

I checked the CID connection, and the wires going to the DIS. I checked both sides of the DIS, and everything looked good.

I used a little test light that I made, but nothing happened. The wires were a little different colored, and I only have 5 wires on each side, with one empty bank on each side.
The car starts right up when cold so like you said, the wiring is probably not the problem.

You think all it is is the O2 sensor? When the car is warmed up, and I finally get it to start, I have to give it gas or it will die. Wouldn't it be the opposite because of flooding? Could a bad O2 sensor throw the 212 or 214 code?

Thanks alot
 

rangerj

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HB,

Lets think about this for a second. When you say you give it gas, do you mean you open the throttle. Opening the throttle plate lets in more air, right?

No, the O2 sensor is not causing the codes 212 or 214.

212 (continuous memory) "Loss of Ignition Diagnostic Monitor (IDM) input to ECA (aka ECU or ECM) / SPOUT circuit GROUNDED

214 (continuous memory) CID (Cylinder Identification)[aka Camshaft Position sensor] circuit failure

Test should be done with a Digital Multimeter (DMM) or a LED (light emiting diod) test light. Do not do the test with an analog (swing needle) meter, nor with an incandescent bulb as a test light. An incandescent type test light/probe is NOT acceptable for the following test either.

Note: The DIS module is mounted on the intake crossover tube. It is grounded by the screws that hold it to the crossover tube.

Remove the screws, one at a time, clean it, replace it, and then do the others until all are clean and making good contact. It helps to coat them lightly with anti-sieze compound on the threads.

1.) PIP (profile ignition pickup or CKP (or crankshaft position sensor) to control unit;

a) Connect DMM or LED between the PIP wire (DB dark blue) at the DIS (fourth one down on the left) and the negative battery terminal (NBT). Crank engine.

Results 3 to 7 volts on the DMM, or the test light blinks.

If not; Crank sensor, crank sensor power or ground, or wiring faulty.

What this means is that the problem could be a bad sensor, a problem with the power wire or the ground wire relative to this sensor, such as a faulty connection, or an "OPEN" in either one of those wires.

2.) SPOUT to DIS Module (PIP signal OK)

a.) Connect DMM or LED between SPOUT wire ((Y/LG =yellow with a light green stripe) and negative battery terminal. Crank engine.

Results 3 to 7 volts or test light blinks
If not. Control unit or wiring faulty

3.) IDM (Ignition Diagnostic Monitor) to control unit

a.) connect DMM or LED between IDM wire (GY/O gray/orange) on the DIS and the NBT.

Results. 3 to 7 volts on the DMM or the test light blinks.

If not. DIS Module or wiring faulty

4.) CID at sensor (back probe the dark green wire at the sensor's connection) (not at the DIS Module)

a.) connect LED test light (not DMM this time)between CID CS wire and NBT. Crank engine

Results. Test light blinks.

If not CID sensor or wiring faulty

5.) COIL Power (PWR)
a.) Connect LED TEST LIGHT (Not DMM) between COIL PWR (VBAT) wire (Top wire on the left on the DIS connection)and the NBT. Key in the on position (KOEO)

Results. Test light on

If not Coil Power Wiring faulty, i.e. bad connection, broken wire, shorted wire.

You may find it easier to have a "lovely assistant" to help youo with doing the tests, e.g. cranking the engine for a few seconds.

Hope this helps. Let us know if you need more info. rangerj

PS. Thanks Scott.
 

92greensho

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here's a thought. Have you checked the vacuum supply to the fuel pressure regulator? If the FPR diaphragm is ruptured there will be fuel in the intake. Raw fuel in the intake will defiantly cause a “hot soak” condition, and an engine that is just barely running will set a plethora of CID, CKP codes.
 

HighBall

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I filled the tank up and the cars runs and starts fine????

I did the tests and got around 1 volt for IDM to control unit, but I plugged the DIS back together, and the car still started right up. Everything else was fine.

Even though the voltage was low, my car starts and runs fine now with a full tank of gas, even when it is hot. I'm going to replace the O2 sensor, and hope for the best.
 

sdpatt

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92greensho:
here's a thought. Have you checked the vacuum supply to the fuel pressure regulator? If the FPR diaphragm is ruptured there will be fuel in the intake. Raw fuel in the intake will defiantly cause a “hot soak” condition, and an engine that is just barely running will set a plethora of CID, CKP codes.
No, a misfiring engine from fuel delivery problems will not set CID or CPS codes. In that case, the electrical system is working properly and only the improper combustion in the cylinder is a telltale symptom. Only an electical circuit or sensor problem will set the CID and CPS codes.

The total ground path to the DIS module should be verified to be intact. See it here.

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: sdpatt ]</small>
 

bflosho

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Sure sounds like a CID and w/ the mileage being right around the same as when mine went out it's the best bet for the hard starts and only cost around 20 bucks and is pretty easy to install. I understand that all the testing is sometimes necassary but all that sounds harder than just replacing it and going from there. That's how its been w/ my car anyways maybe I've just been lucky though
 

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