Base model 7 speaker system--specs and details?

[jim1274]

4- If you do not plan on a HU upgrade. Do you plan on getting (if it is even a probem on the standard SHO system) any audiocontrol products to pump up the signal to the amplifiers?
http://www.audiocontrol.com/t34/17612/OEM-Integration.html

Or even the JL Audio clean sweep?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HovE7k0Bcc

I spoke too soon.....

My local installer (and JL dealer) said the 700/5 amp would act as the interface and OEM integration--that is not clear from perusing the amp features and specs at the JL website. It seems something like the Cleansweep needs to sit between the HU and amp?

I just took a quick look at sonicelectronix integration category since they seem to carry a lot, and there are plethora of choices beyond JL and Audiocontrol. Seems I have a LOT more homework to do and/or find an expert to help me sort this out. I have reservations now on how well the dealer understands his products, which is not a good sign given they are slated to install whatever I come up with.

 

[jim1274]

1. Ironically, the tweeter is probably the least important aspect since they are down low and redundant in the front. I'm thinking the front door mid-bass single driver is running full range and just using natural roll-off. Will addition of a tweeter in the front door unbalance the frequency distribution and make it too "bright"? Ford did NOT put a coax (like they have in rear) in there on the Sony for a reason, right? One might need to have ability to control level in the pillar tweeters under that scenario? Now I am thinking a coax in the rear is OK given no supplemental tweeter back there--that is exactly what Ford did on the Sony. My base model? Who knows what they might have put back there...

I just popped the cover off the 3.5" dash center channel speaker, and that is a paper cone single driver unit. The problem is, nobody makes a 3.5" component style--they all start at 4"--only coaxial designs with a tweeter are available in the 3.5" class. I'll have to run a coax for upgrade in the center, which now raises the question of spectrum balance and potential brightness up front.

Rockford Fosgate does make a 3.5", but in their mid-level "punch" series, not the "power" series of that T1682 we have been discussing. Probably no big deal, really. I actually am more concerned about the addition of a tweeter to the center than I am about the front door having the added tweeter.

Maybe I am splitting hairs and it will not matter in the real world of a car interior? (I have been accused of over analysis more than once...) If I get one of those fancy OEM integration units with EQ and such, it probably does not matter a bit--can fine tune the sound spectrum with that.

 

[SHOrod]

You could just desolder or cut the wire going to the tweeter if the sound is too bright.... Or install an inductor in series with the speaker to function as a 6db/octave low pass filter.

-Rod

 

[jim1274]

You could just desolder or cut the wire going to the tweeter if the sound is too bright.... Or install an inductor in series with the speaker to function as a 6db/octave low pass filter.

-Rod

Duh--thanks.

Currently I am trolling around some other Ford car forums trying to find out what others are using as integration solutions for head units with sync similar to mine. Still trying to sort out the options, but this one seems to be pretty popular--just getting into the details but it looks pretty sophisticated:

http://www.jbl.com/estore/jbl/us/products/MS-8/MS-8_JBL_US

Looks like the street price is about 450 bucks, which seems pretty good value given the amplification is built-in too.

 

[wildosvt]

I really ask that you get your running done, Grab a few cold ones. And THEN loo into that part of the system. Holy cow! lol

Have you figured out if the system is 4 or 5 channel yet?

 

[jim1274]

I really ask that you get your running done, Grab a few cold ones. And THEN loo into that part of the system. Holy cow! lol

Have you figured out if the system is 4 or 5 channel yet?

No, not sure on the 4 vs 5 channel yet, but it probably does not even matter for many of these OEM integration products--they are pretty flexible in terms of inputs. I'm thinking this OEM interface choice is the probably more important than speaker A vs B and such. That MS-8 appears to have the flexibility to integrate with any channel config, so it may not even matter for anything less than 8 channel sources. That thing looks pretty incredible from perusal of the manufacturer site info.

 

[wildosvt]

That is nice! I know the LC2i I used to add a sub in the back of my car used one input but gave 2 outputs. one full and the other sub level. I love little tricks like that!

I think that your are spot on with the path your taking. You are really digging deep and that is going to give you results that you should be more then happy with. You'll make the Sony system sound like a 8-track by comparison.

 

[jim1274]

That is nice! I know the LC2i I used to add a sub in the back of my car used one input but gave 2 outputs. one full and the other sub level. I love little tricks like that!

I think that your are spot on with the path your taking. You are really digging deep and that is going to give you results that you should be more then happy with. You'll make the Sony system sound like a 8-track by comparison.

I sure hope it exceeds the Sony system by a fair margin. My benchmark is more like the Harman Kardon in the wife's SRT8 Challenger--I could not even listen to my base SHO system after hearing that.

I'm probably going to have to up my budget by 500 bucks or so if retaining the JL Stealthbox as my sub solution. Got some feedback that I should go with a box sub and put the savings in the rest of the system for a budget range of $2K or so installed. The Stealthbox was said to be a sub-optimal solution given the needed cuts to other components budgets at that $2K target.

 

[jim1274]

Just thought I would update the thread on where I am at on my evolution of thinking on this upgrade project:

My CURRENT plan is to upgrade the OEM center and door speakers first and retain the head unit for processing and amplification for now. I got cold feet on deploying a JBL MS-8 after perusing some of the challenges others have had with this unit. (just seeing there were 8500+ posts in this thread scared the bejezzus out of me: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...udio-discussion/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor.html)

I am strongly leaning toward trying the least costly upgrades first, which means upgrading my front door and center dash speakers. These are things I feel comfortable tackling myself, and will add sound dampening to the doors too when replacing the front door speakers. (planning to use AlphaDamp since it is on half-price sale now at the DIYMA store)

I'm going to use the 3.5" Pioneer TS-A878 coaxial for the center replacement based on strong recommendation, and have a capacitor or two on hand for a high pass filter if needed (maybe try 100hz crossover point for a start)

I am still undecided on what to use in the front doors. The Hybrid Audio Technology Imagines (popular on the car stereo forums in the entry level of the high end lines) look like a fine choice, but wonder if enough sound quality improvement is going to be realized using the factory head unit processing and amplification to justify $300 speakers. It seems the consensus is that I should not just use a better 6 by 8 OEM size replacement but instead go to a round component mid-bass or coaxial. Lots of options here, but am considering just trying component speakers in the same A series as the 3.5" Pioneer TS-A878 or the next up D series for starters. I am not opposed to spending $300 for the HATs if worthwhile while still using the OEM processing and amplification at this point, but not yet convinced of the price/performance ratio in absence of upgraded processing/amplificaction.

Then see how much improvement I get from these low-cost steps and decide what to do next. Maybe I can get pretty good results from speaker upgrades and just add a sub for phase 2, eliminating the cost and complexity of an MS-8? If I do the speaker upgrades myself, even with getting a pro install for the JL Audio Stealthbox and amp, I will be pretty close to my $2K target budget. Adding a sub is almost surely in my upgrade path, and I am pretty smitten with the Stealthbox's "stealth" if not so much so with the price.

This is subject to change, but what I am thinking at this point.

 

[SHOrod]

Note that there are some tricks to getting at least the front door panels off. I haven't had the rears off yet, but I suspect they are somewhat similar. There are a couple of hidden screws behind the faux carbon fiber piece near the top of the panel. I believe the post that showed the door speaker cone also highlighted the mounting locations for the panel If you don't find that info, let me know as I know I at least took a photo of the door panel mounting points.

-Rod

 

[jim1274]

Note that there are some tricks to getting at least the front door panels off. I haven't had the rears off yet, but I suspect they are somewhat similar. There are a couple of hidden screws behind the faux carbon fiber piece near the top of the panel. I believe the post that showed the door speaker cone also highlighted the mounting locations for the panel If you don't find that info, let me know as I know I at least took a photo of the door panel mounting points.

-Rod

Thanks, Rod, and I already have your door panel thread bookmarked as a guide. I am leaving the rear doors alone for now.

I need to go revisit your thread--can't recall if you installed sound deadening and if there were any photos if so. I just ordered some deadening material last night and need to figure out where to apply it. This is my first experience doing that on a car door.

 

[SHOrod]

I did apply some mat to the door, but that was in an attempt to fix a rattle, not for audio reasons. Certainly applying the mat for audio reasons would be different (such as a square behind where the speaker installs and probably another square near the latch area.

-Rod

 

[jim1274]

I did apply some mat to the door, but that was in an attempt to fix a rattle, not for audio reasons. Certainly applying the mat for audio reasons would be different (such as a square behind where the speaker installs and probably another square near the latch area.

-Rod

I think a more generous application of sound mat to the doors has value for audio reasons but have not fully explored the optimal amount and placement just yet. I did order some quality dampening mat that will be used on the doors and in the trunk for my sub install. This stuff is alleged to be a premier product and figured worth a try when a 50% off deal surfaced:

http://www.alphadamp.com/

 

[SHOrod]

They make the same claims as the others (only need to cover 25% of the panel) but yet their photos show significantly more than that covered. Hmmm.....

-Rod

 

[wildosvt]

Probably user photos Rod. People always over do it with "dynamat". Except for the guy with alot of exhaust drone. He is on a mission. LOL

 

[jim1274]

They make the same claims as the others (only need to cover 25% of the panel) but yet their photos show significantly more than that covered. Hmmm.....

-Rod

I was not buying based on the 25% claim, and only bought on a half-price deal that made the price in the same ballpark as the similar competitor products. Saved a few bucks more too by getting the B stock. Would not have touched this product if not for the 50% off deal. Was skeptical too.....

 

[SHOrod]

Sure, and I suspect this stuff will probably offer similar performance to the others, which will be better than if you used nothing at all. I initially went to the link you provided based on your comment that you think a more generous amount should be used for an audio install since my recall is that general claims are you only need to cover 25% of the panel. That's when I saw the expected comment that didn't align with the photos (which I agree are most likely user photos). It seems considering their dissertation on why their product is so much better than others, they would use photos to support such a claim....

-Rod

 

[jim1274]

Sure, and I suspect this stuff will probably offer similar performance to the others, which will be better than if you used nothing at all. I initially went to the link you provided based on your comment that you think a more generous amount should be used for an audio install since my recall is that general claims are you only need to cover 25% of the panel. That's when I saw the expected comment that didn't align with the photos (which I agree are most likely user photos). It seems considering their dissertation on why their product is so much better than others, they would use photos to support such a claim....

-Rod

I should have been more clear. What I meant was that more dampening material should maybe (maybe not?) be used for audio purposes that silencing a rattle--statement was independent of type of dampening and claims of reduced amount of this alphadamp needed relative to other products. At 50% off, it was comparable in price to others, so I just decided to order some and not spend a lot of time comparing products.

My thought was that more is better for sound deadening, but I have not yet found any definitive information on the optimal amount of dampening in a door application. I'm planning to treat as much of the door metal surfaces as possible unless information surfaces to suggest that one can over-dampen in this situation.

 

[SHOrod]

I think the biggest negative to using more than necessary is the added weight of the product and its impact to acceleration, handling, and fuel economy.

-Rod

 

[jim1274]

I think the biggest negative to using more than necessary is the added weight of the product and its impact to acceleration, handling, and fuel economy.

-Rod

Good point, but we are talking less than 20 pounds for 40 square feet, assuming I use it all between the 2 front doors and the trunk. The product web site did not list weight on the spec page, but 40 sq ft had a shipping weight of 21 pounds, so we are talking probably close to 20 or 0.5 lb/sq ft.

The JL Stealthbox is going to add a lot more weight than the dampening. Did not see the total weight on the JL site, but did note just the raw woofer driver is 18.6 pounds--including enclosure could be pushing 30 pounds.

This stuff adds up little by little. Throw in a hefty amp and upgraded speakers which likely have larger magnets and heftier frames and you are probably pushing 75 lbs of audio upgrades.

I'll gladly trade-off the the added weight for a good sound system.