Airaid Intake just released....

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PhantomX

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Phantom, I guess the best way for you to find out what works would be to see how many CFM the SHO uses at full boost, then test and see if the air box will flow what it needs.. Im pretty sure you will be surprised at what you see. I think it would be great if you would step up and figure all this out, instead of telling us what you read on the internet because it must be true if its on the internet! Right..

I can plumb a garbage can for you if that's really what you want.

I been building and racing cars for 20+ years now, long before the internet bench racers came around. Since many fail to acknowledge even the basic principals of engine functions I'll spell it out:

Engine breathing 101

An engine is essentially a big air pump. The idea behind a CAI or any type of better breathing filter is to allow the engine to breath more deeply, removing restrictions allows a higher volume of air which in theory is cooler and more dense, this cooler denser air has more oxygen in it (especially when the vehicle is in motion and air gets rammed in at a higher rate), as we know the more oxygen you feed a fire the more potent the fire, the more potent the fire the higher the pressure is in the cylinders, the higher the pressure goes up the more power an engine makes. As you restrict the oxygen the fire becomes less potent, the pressure descreases and the power levels subside, restrict it entirely and the fire goes out (that's when your pushing).

Therefore if we control the amount of oxygen in the air coming into the cylinders we control how much power the engine makes, to a certain degree of course because we haven't even begun to talk about timing, fuel, etc. In addition to that a cooler, denser charge will also supress detonation which allows for more timing advance, more fuel delivery, more power.

Now at some point the fire will only be so strong regardless of the amount of oxygen but the principal of better output due to cooler, denser even faster moving air can make small improvements to power output, period. I'm not here to argue and say your going to get gobs of horsepower by changing the intake, I'm saying you'll see a modest increase over the factory design, which in itself is driven by cost and the need to cater to the masses. The baffels and restrictions and bends and filters are all picked to provide the necessary power levels to achieve the engineers goals, which are to run the engine safely, provide optimum fuel economy and make it quiet, sometimes they make it so quiet that they put "noise pipes" on to add to the "experience" (VW, Ford, they all do it, I've removed several).

The turbo will only boost to its designed regulated boost level, so how does a improved intake track make the turbo boost more and create more hp?

It doesn't make the turbo make more boost, it makes the turbo more efficient, now here's where it starts to get a bit muddy:

Why do you think your car runs better when it's 50 degrees and cold outside vs when it's a 100 degrees and sweltering? thoughts?

Here is what Gale Banks says, "It's all about airflow. Airflow helps engines make power in many ways, but it is also true that the more air you can flow through an engine, the more oxygen that will be available for burning fuel. More oxygen means more fuel can be burned, and that means more power."

I'd say that guy really knows his 'ish. It's also about temperature and pressure, change those variables and even at the same boost levels the output you get will be drastically different.

So why does your car run better with a cooler intake charge vs a hotter intake charge (or a more restrictive one)?

Well here's why:

The general rule is that for every 10º of temperature drop, the density (and oxygen content) increases about 1 to 1.8 percent. Similarly, power increases by an equal amount. If you have a temperature drop of 50 degrees for example (100 vs 50, I live in FL I see both those temps) you can potentially effect power by somewhere around 5 to 9 percent to the positive as temps drop. Lets apply some simple math to that:

365hp x 1.8% = 6.57HP increase per 10 degrees of temperature drop, drop 50 degrees and your car will make approximately 32hp more (5 x 6.5) at 50 degrees then it will at 100 degrees, and that's leaving the boost levels exactly the same. Now if you really want it to get ugly start figuring in pressure levels at different atmospheres, thats why your car runs like crap at 5000 feet, there is less oxygen in the air, less pressure, less density it all equals less power.

So how does this come back to a Cold Air kit. Using our simple math from above many have seen around a 10 degree drop in IAT's using a well designed cold air intake system, as we have discoverd that is about a 6.5hp increase for our application. Now as the volume of air goes up (the ram effect and using more surface area on the filter) the IAT's can drop even further, lets say 15 degrees, now your making about 9.2hp more (again for our application) just by putting an effective intake system on that can both decrease temps and increase volume making the air more oxygen rich, which we now know effects performance (without effecting boost levels). Oddly enough that CAI we are all discussing makes about 9hp give or take temp, pressure, etc; and after doing the math, seems to be just about spot on. With an increase in volume, cooler charge, more oxygen, you get more power.

...I'll retire my soap box now :munch:
 
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Tech Addiction

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Which is why My 2005 Mustang GT in, 98 degrees for Pinks-All-Out on 5 JUne this year, only went 12.09 best pass but the third week of March this year it went 11.44 in 40 degree weather. It's Supercharged. Superchargers and Turbochargers are all affected more by temperature changes than naturally aspirated engines. Thats why your first pass at the Dyno is usually your quickest and it slows up from there without any tunning envolved.
 

JayV78

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Engine breathing 101

An engine is essentially a big air pump.

I have been watching this thread while waiting for Delivery of my SHO which too about 3 weeks for the dealer to find the one I waited. But the first thing I noticed on this car is that for some reason they are starving the engine of air. That intake is fine for a stock Taurus, but adding turbos is a whole different monster.
I ordered the AirRaid intake kit as soon as I saw it released before I even got my car. The intake just showed up today so I am going to do the install tonight looks pretty straight forward. The build quality of the box is OEM quality and while some people might be ok using a plastic nail box, I am not. This is a nice looking kit that once on should have a stock look but give the engine more CFM. Some more aggressive Turbo cars have 2 air intakes.

So if anyone wants to watch me do the install, I would be happy to livestream it. PM me and I will shoot you my U-Stream address. I am most curios to see if there will be any added engine noise.

4889610804_8d8ba9c1a3.jpg
 

RonPorter

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TAKE THAT!!!!! Naysayers!!!!:thankyou::thankyou::thankyou:

Well, I've been building and racing cars for 40+ years.....

I have records of cars with temp differences versus ET & traps speeds, etc, etc.

Factories are much better at getting cooler air to an engine. You can throw all of the stats and theories at the wall that you want, but I don't see you gaining much. They don't leave HP on the table like they used to.

If building your own cold-air setup gives you a chubby, go for it. Other than more noise, your butt dyno ain't gonna feel it. Nor your timing slip.
 

EcoBrick Bob

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"Engine Fluff" = Chubby

Rubba Dub Dubby!

When I owned the 4 V-6 SHO's in the 90's.... I painted the intake "Black" and added
Flame decals... Good for at least 20 HP! (Similar to my " 15 hp Red Caliper Mod").

:evilgrin:
 

bpd1151

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:deadhorse:

It may be just me, but good lord, enough already.

This debate has raged on, on multiple forums and with what appears to be the vast amount of knowledge here on the SHOforum, I'm sure each of you will not deviate from your respective positions.

Seriously though. Just my .02 cents of chump change on the topic.
 

thebigjimsho

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I been building and racing cars for 20+ years now, long before the internet bench racers came around. Since many fail to acknowledge even the basic principals of engine functions I'll spell it out:

Engine breathing 101

An engine is essentially a big air pump. The idea behind a CAI or any type of better breathing filter is to allow the engine to breath more deeply, removing restrictions allows a higher volume of air which in theory is cooler and more dense, this cooler denser air has more oxygen in it (especially when the vehicle is in motion and air gets rammed in at a higher rate), as we know the more oxygen you feed a fire the more potent the fire, the more potent the fire the higher the pressure is in the cylinders, the higher the pressure goes up the more power an engine makes. As you restrict the oxygen the fire becomes less potent, the pressure descreases and the power levels subside, restrict it entirely and the fire goes out (that's when your pushing).

Therefore if we control the amount of oxygen in the air coming into the cylinders we control how much power the engine makes, to a certain degree of course because we haven't even begun to talk about timing, fuel, etc. In addition to that a cooler, denser charge will also supress detonation which allows for more timing advance, more fuel delivery, more power.

Now at some point the fire will only be so strong regardless of the amount of oxygen but the principal of better output due to cooler, denser even faster moving air can make small improvements to power output, period. I'm not here to argue and say your going to get gobs of horsepower by changing the intake, I'm saying you'll see a modest increase over the factory design, which in itself is driven by cost and the need to cater to the masses. The baffels and restrictions and bends and filters are all picked to provide the necessary power levels to achieve the engineers goals, which are to run the engine safely, provide optimum fuel economy and make it quiet, sometimes they make it so quiet that they put "noise pipes" on to add to the "experience" (VW, Ford, they all do it, I've removed several).



It doesn't make the turbo make more boost, it makes the turbo more efficient, now here's where it starts to get a bit muddy:

Why do you think your car runs better when it's 50 degrees and cold outside vs when it's a 100 degrees and sweltering? thoughts?

Here is what Gale Banks says, "It's all about airflow. Airflow helps engines make power in many ways, but it is also true that the more air you can flow through an engine, the more oxygen that will be available for burning fuel. More oxygen means more fuel can be burned, and that means more power."

I'd say that guy really knows his 'ish. It's also about temperature and pressure, change those variables and even at the same boost levels the output you get will be drastically different.

So why does your car run better with a cooler intake charge vs a hotter intake charge (or a more restrictive one)?

Well here's why:

The general rule is that for every 10º of temperature drop, the density (and oxygen content) increases about 1 to 1.8 percent. Similarly, power increases by an equal amount. If you have a temperature drop of 50 degrees for example (100 vs 50, I live in FL I see both those temps) you can potentially effect power by somewhere around 5 to 9 percent to the positive as temps drop. Lets apply some simple math to that:

365hp x 1.8% = 6.57HP increase per 10 degrees of temperature drop, drop 50 degrees and your car will make approximately 32hp more (5 x 6.5) at 50 degrees then it will at 100 degrees, and that's leaving the boost levels exactly the same. Now if you really want it to get ugly start figuring in pressure levels at different atmospheres, thats why your car runs like crap at 5000 feet, there is less oxygen in the air, less pressure, less density it all equals less power.

So how does this come back to a Cold Air kit. Using our simple math from above many have seen around a 10 degree drop in IAT's using a well designed cold air intake system, as we have discoverd that is about a 6.5hp increase for our application. Now as the volume of air goes up (the ram effect and using more surface area on the filter) the IAT's can drop even further, lets say 15 degrees, now your making about 9.2hp more (again for our application) just by putting an effective intake system on that can both decrease temps and increase volume making the air more oxygen rich, which we now know effects performance (without effecting boost levels). Oddly enough that CAI we are all discussing makes about 9hp give or take temp, pressure, etc; and after doing the math, seems to be just about spot on. With an increase in volume, cooler charge, more oxygen, you get more power.

...I'll retire my soap box now :munch:

So basically, you just proved that the Turbonators and electric superchargers do work. Congratulations...
 

PhantomX

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So basically, you just proved that the Turbonators and electric superchargers do work. Congratulations...

OH please, we're discussing modest gains from putting a better intake system on. Some cars gain big, some small. I've seen both sides. My 04 Cobra gained 30rwhp with a good intake over the factory system, the SHO probably 8-10.

At the end of the day you need the rest of the supporting mods to gain the full potential (exhaust, tuning, etc).

Interesting enough I think the Factory even agrees, mo air, mo betta:

Here is the 2008 Shelby with it's stock, closed off airbox:
ford-shelby_mustang-gt500-manu-08-e01-800.jpg


This is the updated setup, from FORD for the Shelby to allow it to make more power, note the revised intake and open element filter, part of the reason it makes 40more HP:
m5lp_0908_08_z+2010_shelby_gt500+engine.jpg



I'll tell ya what, I'll even go a step further, since the science and the math and the proven statistics don't seem to get thru, I'll let the guys that design this stuff chime in. This is a Direct Quote FROM FORD out of there press release (or from the Horses Mouth as they say):

The Shelby’s open-element air induction system features a conical air filter instead of a flat-panel closed system to reduce air restriction. This approach allows more air to be pumped through the engine, producing more power and increasing the engine’s efficiency.

A cold-air intake feeds the coolest air possible directly into the air box, helping further increase horsepower. The intake necessitated moving the Cobra snake badge to the other side of the grille to enable maximum airflow.

I'm pretty sure no matter how you read that, FORD is saying, at least with there designed flat panel enclosed system, that if you put a cold air intake on, it's gonna make more power, so that system we got ain't exactly made for performance... :evilgrin:

You can read the rest here if ya like:
http://jalopnik.com/5120297/2010-ford-shelby-gt500-coupe-convertible


Now if that doesn't retire the soapbox then I believe some people will remain lost and may never be found, then again that might not be a bad thing...
 
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jobes

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We'll I ordered mine at any Intention of argument. I really don't care. Its $248 my god for a few HP and I like the compartment candy. Looks better then a black box:)
 

Billm0066

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Intakes on a turbo car will yield little power if any as long as the oem system was designed well. Typically they are just used to make more noise. Some cars have shown a k&n filter will yield less power than a clean oem paper filter as well. The neon srt-4 is an example of that. Since I don't own a sho yet I cant comment on how well the oem intake was designed, but with the quick glance I did with a car at the dealer it looked fine.
 

PhantomX

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Intakes on a turbo car will yield little power if any as long as the oem system was designed well. Typically they are just used to make more noise. Some cars have shown a k&n filter will yield less power than a clean oem paper filter as well. The neon srt-4 is an example of that. Since I don't own a sho yet I cant comment on how well the oem intake was designed, but with the quick glance I did with a car at the dealer it looked fine.

Actually I have dyno results that prove otherwise. My SRT-4 with modded air box picked up about 10whp over much of the RPM range, not quite that much peak, under the curve looked good though. I pretty much ****** the box out and put a K&N panel filter in, even modded the scoop on the hood. That little car did move out though, with the $1mod, modded stock box and 3" exhuast it made 270whp and went 13.4's on stock tires :naughty:
 
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SHO GoDz 89

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Wait what? ARE YOU GUYS SAYING I SHOULD HAVE LEFT MY STOCK INTAKE ON THIS WHOLE TIME?

Damn, I wish I had known this from the beginning, I could have moar powa.

40224_456788274251_669279251_6237617_7641314_n.jpg


18032_320241754251_669279251_4577220_1596078_n.jpg


Gosh, now I need to find a stock air box now.


And YES, that is a SHO oil cap I am currently using
 
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Billm0066

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Actually I have dyno results that prove otherwise. My SRT-4 with modded air box picked up about 10whp over much of the RPM range, not quite that much peak, under the curve looked good though. I pretty much ****** the box out and put a K&N panel filter in, even modded the scoop on the hood. That little car did move out though, with the $1mod, modded stock box and 3" exhuast it made 270whp and went 13.4's on stock tires :naughty:

Dynos prove nothing. A car sitting in a room with a fan doesnt mean much. Take it to a track and you get the results. I ran 13.9 stock and my buddy ran a 13.6 with my car, but he is an excellent driver. I got my info from one of the engine calibrators for the srt team. He said they got less air flow with a k&n filter on the stock airbox.
 

RonPorter

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Dynos prove nothing. A car sitting in a room with a fan doesnt mean much. Take it to a track and you get the results. I ran 13.9 stock and my buddy ran a 13.6 with my car, but he is an excellent driver. I got my info from one of the engine calibrators for the srt team. He said they got less air flow with a k&n filter on the stock airbox.

+1

That's why CAI mfrs get away with so much BS on what they do.

For myself, if someone fullly documents a day at the dragstrip before/after, traps speeds "might" show any difference. This is with identical conditions.

10 peak crank HP on a 4,500 # car (and cold air with less restriction is only good at high rpm) is negligible.

It's all in the intake noise.
 

SHO GoDz 89

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+1

That's why CAI mfrs get away with so much BS on what they do.

For myself, if someone fullly documents a day at the dragstrip before/after, traps speeds "might" show any difference. This is with identical conditions.

10 peak crank HP on a 4,500 # car (and cold air with less restriction is only good at high rpm) is negligible.

It's all in the intake noise.

I did a SpeedUnit install on a Speed6 a while ago, although it was no longer CAI, it DID add power, just due to the overall better flow characteristics of the intake. The results are repeatable and verified by the Mazda community.

So no, it's not always noise. When you go to straight 2.5" pipe from some oblong plastic intake (designed for noise reduction, not performance), then you will gain something, ESPECIALLY ON A TURBO CHARGED ENGINE.

The point is, YOU WILL GAIN SOMETHING from an improved intake setup, no matter how minimal it is. It is common sense, get rid of the restrictions.

On my car, I gained 22whp just from going CAI. I was previously drawing in hot air with my old intake set up.
If I left my stock air box in how ever....it would be absolutely pointless for me to run 22psi since my turbo out flows the stock air box at 15psi.
 

RonPorter

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On my car, I gained 22whp just from going CAI. I was previously drawing in hot air with my old intake set up.
If I left my stock air box in how ever....it would be absolutely pointless for me to run 22psi since my turbo out flows the stock air box at 15psi.

I would hope so!!

I busted the sound boombox off the bottom of my airbox on the LGT. More sound, I hear the BOV, and it sucks air from the lower fenderwell area. Saved me wasting the $$$ on one of the CAI setups.

And zero difference in the 1/4-mile, with a LOT of runs before/after.

Sure, some cars may get a gain, and there's a bunch of folks with time on their hands to mess around with it. Not worth my time or $$$ on any vehicle.
 

PhantomX

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Dynos prove nothing. A car sitting in a room with a fan doesnt mean much. Take it to a track and you get the results. I ran 13.9 stock and my buddy ran a 13.6 with my car, but he is an excellent driver. I got my info from one of the engine calibrators for the srt team. He said they got less air flow with a k&n filter on the stock airbox.


Well sorry there is no substitue for the driver mod. Apples to Apples is you driving the car exactly the same. Our cars is pretty easy, put it in drive, mat the gas, it ain't rocket science, my wife could do it and pull the same ET's.

Here is my SRT - same weather conditions all done over 2 weeks.
SRT-4 Stock 14.2
SRT-4 Modded Intake (seriously modded) and $1 mod 13.7
SRT-4 3" Exhaust 13.4

As I mentioned before the engine is a big air pump the more efficiently you move air through it the better it will perform.

Based on all the naysayer comments I guess I could run a 500HP SHO on the stock intake system and paper filter cause, hey it's as optimum as it gets (even though Ford was quoted as saying it's restrictive and not designed for performance, buy hey what do the folks that designed and built it know, us forum posters know way more then them engineer types)

An intake is only part of the entire picture, you need the rest of the package to reach it's full potential. If you tune it, put it exhaust on it and open up the volume of air the engine can pump thru it then an intake is absolutely required. Doing it on it's own will only get you part of the way there. The real benefits is when you put it all together. Even Darrell's car is .3 quicker then Livernois and the only difference is a slightly shorter gear ratio and a CAI.

I guess if we follow some of the logic in this thread we can throw a stock airbox on this thing and it should work just fine (sorry this was just really to cool not to post but the point still stands):
http://www.stangtv.com/news/old-school-bds-8-71-blower-meets-new-school-5-4l-mustang-at-fastlane/
 

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