St Louis SHO
Rollin' coal
No, Randy, Better yet, let him ride with Brian. Maybe he'll yack at the end of a lap.
238,000 miles no cam weld.
- Thread starter sholover719
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nothingtoseehere
SHO Member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2001
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- 2,483
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Ride with Kirk and you'll see you life flash before your eyes. Mine was very short, and not too impressive, damn.
zblackbeast
SHOtarded
^^How to wet your pants 101!
zblackbeast
SHOtarded
RonPorter
SHO Club of America
You beat me to it!!
After I read that, I was coming up with a smartass reply, but yours does fine!!
E1 v2
crash tested
I think the highest mileage that we have confirmed at V8SHO.com is 271,000 miles.
That was on a car that also had the original tranny in it too. Extremely uncommon on both points - cams AND tranny.
Miracles DO happen from time to time, I believe SOME SHO's will survive long enough to die from other causes. It's a budget issue at this point. The cars really aren't worth all that much - do you want to dump a good chunk of change into it for insurance sake or are you willing to just junk it if it cuts loose?
That was on a car that also had the original tranny in it too. Extremely uncommon on both points - cams AND tranny.
Miracles DO happen from time to time, I believe SOME SHO's will survive long enough to die from other causes. It's a budget issue at this point. The cars really aren't worth all that much - do you want to dump a good chunk of change into it for insurance sake or are you willing to just junk it if it cuts loose?
Izzmo
SHO Enthusiast
I bet it also depends on whose driving it.
If there isn't a lot of torque ever put forth on the cams (let's say below 2500 RPMs), then the cams might stay intact. This isn't always true, but if a driver never goes very fast in it, this will prolong it.
It's just physics.
If there isn't a lot of torque ever put forth on the cams (let's say below 2500 RPMs), then the cams might stay intact. This isn't always true, but if a driver never goes very fast in it, this will prolong it.
It's just physics.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
Nope, I was at 150,000K with 50+ bottles of NOS and just decided to weld mine because I had already welded about 500 others and I would look real stupid if mine blew up.
Not all of the cams are bad, They get made and placed in bins, then as they assemble an engine they reach in and grab what ever cam is closest and install it. So there are some"very few" that got all good cams.
E1, just an FYI you say we at camfailure.com.. "We" meaning "you" havent been there all that long and one of the founding members of V8SHO had a car at 300,000 well before you came in. Al,s car had 300000 miles on it in 2002, now that im thinking about it.
What ever the case is. they all should be welded if you want to keep the car. if you wish to gamble then gamble, if you want to drive the car them weld them.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
Im sure your a good kid and I mean no offense, but let me track your car for half a session and when we stop I bet your car ****** itself.
My new car sees 6400rmp's on a daily bases two! :laugh_ti:
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Eastcoast SHO
SHO
:laugh_ti:
Izzmo
SHO Enthusiast
What you say hardly makes sense.
The sprockets are press fitted onto the cams (in a very simple sense). Yes there are manufacturing defaults, but it's simple physics, one of which you cannot deny. If you are driving your car like a "granny" (under 3k rpms all the time), then you will have a smaller chance of cam failure than ones who is above 3k a lot. You have torque created by the combustion of the engine which is transferred to the crank, which is transferred to the cams (by chain) and then to the sprocket and cam itself. So, the higher the torque, the better chance of the sprocket slipping.
There will always be manufacturer defects, and I think we can all agree that press fitting was not the best route to go, but there were not as many defected cams as you say. There are way more SHO's still active today without welded cams than there are welded.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
IM new here sorry.
Its the Manuf defects with the heating and cooling of dissimilar metals is what cause the slip. NOT BRUTE FORCE.
Colder months always bring more and more camfailures.
Its the Manuf defects with the heating and cooling of dissimilar metals is what cause the slip. NOT BRUTE FORCE.
Colder months always bring more and more camfailures.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
"There are way more SHO's still active today without welded cams than there are welded."
Huh?????????? REALLY??????????
WOW.:laugh_ti:
Huh?????????? REALLY??????????
WOW.:laugh_ti:
Izzmo
SHO Enthusiast
Realllllyyyy... then how is the sprocket supposed to slip? Magic? I don't think so. That force (torque) which moves it does. I am not saying you are completely wrong, and you are right, but it does fail because of the torque exerted on the sprocket.
Well, cold makes metal contract. And different metals contract different (and expand differently) in different temperatures. So, we can say that the sprocket and the cam probably contract and different rates, and we can safely say (based on what you've seen) that the cam shaft shrinks more than the sprocket. So, based on that, then at start or by driving, the torque exerted on the cam will cause the sprocket to slip easier (the frictional force on the sprocket will be smaller). So, what I say is indeed true, and what you say is in part true as well.
And.. "There are way more SHO's still active today without welded cams than there are welded."
Prove me wrong? Ford sort a lot of SHO's.. and you have welded a vast majority, but I gurantee a lot of unwelded are still on the road today, MORE than welded. I mean.. sit and think about it.. it makes sense.
** EDIT
So, lets look at the records (this is from Wikipedia.. so don't take it to heart, but it's something). In 1997, there were 9,000 sales of SHO, so we can assume (safely) based on this number that at least 8,000 were sold a year, and to be conservative, I will bring that down to 7,000 SHO's sold between 1996 and 1999, so that would be 28,000 SHO's sold in total. Based on what you have said, you think you've welded even 20% of those? (Which is 5,600 cars) It's possible.
But even so, there is no way that more than 50% of all the SHO's sold have broken down today. I can safely say there are at least 50% of those cars still on the road today (and I'm being conservative about these numbers), and probably less than 10% of those are welded.
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SHODWN
Mother Threasa
5k in 96
10k in 97
5k in 98
5k in 99
There were 20000 made roughly.
How many do you think are left? Remove the 1100 camfailures off the top so say there are 19000 made. How many are left? Take out for other failures that the car was scrapped for, how many sit dead now and how many have been wrecked.
So all we are looking here for is the number or total running cars today. whats your assumption?
sorry for the delay im having cookies and tea.
10k in 97
5k in 98
5k in 99
There were 20000 made roughly.
How many do you think are left? Remove the 1100 camfailures off the top so say there are 19000 made. How many are left? Take out for other failures that the car was scrapped for, how many sit dead now and how many have been wrecked.
So all we are looking here for is the number or total running cars today. whats your assumption?
sorry for the delay im having cookies and tea.
stephen newberg
SHO Member
Actually, the exact number of Gen IIIs made is available over on V8.SHO. I forget the exact total, but it is a bit over 20,000 units for the 4 year production span. Sales of the later years went down a good deal.
You both have solid points on the physics and metallurgy, by the way, so no need to keep fighting it out.
As per if there are more welded or unwelded still on the road, there is simply no way to actually know. Keep in mind that there are likely a solid number that first found out about the cam problem when the engine died and were then told the cost of repair and just let the car be junked. I know the location of 2 of those just here on Vancouver Island. But I only know of 2 that are running here, and of those only mine is welded, IIRC. So...
pax, smn
You both have solid points on the physics and metallurgy, by the way, so no need to keep fighting it out.
As per if there are more welded or unwelded still on the road, there is simply no way to actually know. Keep in mind that there are likely a solid number that first found out about the cam problem when the engine died and were then told the cost of repair and just let the car be junked. I know the location of 2 of those just here on Vancouver Island. But I only know of 2 that are running here, and of those only mine is welded, IIRC. So...
pax, smn
Izzmo
SHO Enthusiast
stephen does make a good point.. we will never know.
But.. based on the new numbers... I will probably lower my percentage to maybe 40%.. with a margin of error of +/- 5%.
I have a SHO sitting in my garage right now which is not welded, has 130k miles on it and is running strong and there are no slip marks on the cams.
Based on that and what other people have said (and these are only people on these forums).. there has to be more. So you have to take that into account.
Anyways... good points. I'm out!
But.. based on the new numbers... I will probably lower my percentage to maybe 40%.. with a margin of error of +/- 5%.
I have a SHO sitting in my garage right now which is not welded, has 130k miles on it and is running strong and there are no slip marks on the cams.
Based on that and what other people have said (and these are only people on these forums).. there has to be more. So you have to take that into account.
Anyways... good points. I'm out!
Racer X
SHO Pilot, Retired
Dissimilar metals expand and contract at different rates.
You're a genius, so you know this already.
The sprocket is "swedged" onto the splined cam shaft, creating an interference fit.
You're a genius, so you know this also already.
Since the two parts of the assembly are expanding and contracting and different rates, there is going to be some degree of abrasion, albeit minute. After so many heat cycles, over at least 10 years (obviously less in the failures prior to today), eventually the parts are going to develop a clearance. Additionally, once this clearance forms, the wear between the parts is accelerated by the force exerted on the cam shaft by the chain sprocket. This will only continue until eventually the shaft splines get worn down enough for the parts to slip past one another, and you know the rest.
At the end of the day, THIS is the physics behind why the cam failures happen, and not driving style. It was a poor design that should have never been used, plain and simple, and over time, THESE physics alone will bring failure to every un-welded V8, plain and simple.
And on your ninja edit...
NESHO is not the only outfit welding the V8 cams, there are several others across the country who are, not to mention the DIY jobs and other undocumented cases. Chances are, of the remaining running G3's on the road, more than 50% are welded. And the difference?
Well, let's just say that us Gen 2 and Gen 1 folk will have no shortage of subframes to do our G3 subframe upgrades.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
Izzy!!! Dont leave dude.. Sometimes this (kinda ****** on one another) is the best way to learn...
Just whip a number out there.. there is no wrong number because we dont know.. Nobody does.. But I have a number of ones that were fixed (pretty close guesses) lets see how it comes out.
Hamal, thanks for the long explanition I was not typeing that all out! But you should promote NESHO some more than you do! Otherwise next time I see you Im going to pull your Huggiebear hat down over your eyes so you dont see the dissimliar metals cam heading for your Ass! Plus I wont haul your shit no more!:laugh_ti:
Izzmo
SHO Enthusiast
RacerX, that's for the compliment
By the way people.. why in the world would you take driving style out the equation? It obviously makes a difference. But again.. there are way too many variables in order to prove why 1 cam fails over another.. but we do know the general reason.. as RacerX so.. uuhh elegantly put.
Hey Kirk.. while I have your attention: http://www.nesho.com/Gen 3 SHO MTX.htm
How much are thoes going for?
By the way people.. why in the world would you take driving style out the equation? It obviously makes a difference. But again.. there are way too many variables in order to prove why 1 cam fails over another.. but we do know the general reason.. as RacerX so.. uuhh elegantly put.
Hey Kirk.. while I have your attention: http://www.nesho.com/Gen 3 SHO MTX.htm
How much are thoes going for?
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