No crank no start nothing happens with push button either

[SHO@Sparks]

Battery was replaced a hour ago with a 800 ccs battery and started fine for first 2 starts then did the same thing with the lock and unlock. I did also tell it I put a new battery in it with forscan with resetting bms

Even though it was good idea to upgrade the battery to a greater CCA, a known good lower CCA battery such even a 550 CCA battery shouldn't be causing what your experiencing. It should still have started the vehicle if everything was OK.

What is the PATS antitheft light doing when the concern occurs, if it's seen in the IPC?

Have you replaced the battery in your push button remote?

Have you confirmed what the BCM PID Battery SOC% is now reading?

Have you tried starting it in Neutral? You can manually shift it into neutral at the console. Also, make sure the shifter is fully into Park.

Are your brake lights working?

Is there an aftermarket alarm or auto start wired into the vehicle?

Is there a bling ring around the pushbutton start button. These can cause no starts as they interfere with the signal. The push button start switch is just a momentary contact switch.

It looks like you have Forscan? If so, can you scan the following modules for DTCs: PCM, BCM, RFA, GWM, IPC? Also, if you can, document all codes set, clear all codes and retest. If there are no on demand faults and it starts, try to get it to re-occur and retest for the DTCs that set during the concern. You can also monitor multiple inputs needed for start up through the PCM and BCM.

There have been some issues with BCM modules failing intermittently and causing no starts and other odd issues with exterior lighting. When the concern occurs, have someone else look at the the exterior lights to see if any are pulsing or flickering, when they shouldn't be on. This can be caused sometimes by a failing BCM. Check all BCM connections for being correctly installed. You can also unplug all of the BCM connections to ensure that there isn't any water entry or corrosion.

Not that the push button start switch can't fail, it's just not a common failure on Ford's from my experience.

I know this is a lot more info and there are several areas to diagnose, but it can be narrowed down by following a process when you understand the sequence to start the vehicle with a push button start.

Maybe you can post a video of what exactly occurs, as seeing it can be helpful too.

 

[gavinmalone1]

Anti theft is definitely engaged in this mode as I’ve opened the door and the alarm did the countdown and then went off that is with the key fully in the center console spot. All lights fully work when normally working and I will share a video. Battery is brand new in keyfob and nothing aftermarket Is on the car.

Sorry for videos at night that’s all I could record since I’m not home and these were recorded yesterday

PCM P193E:00
PCM U0140:00
APIM U0140:00
APIM U024b:00
APIM U024C:00
Fcim U0155:00
IPC U0424:82
These were the stored codes it’s throwing up some bcm codes. Is there any good way to test the bcm itself or is it just a hope it’s broke and replace it?

 

[gavinmalone1]

Anti theft is definitely engaged in this mode as I’ve opened the door and the alarm did the countdown and then went off that is with the key fully in the center console spot. All lights fully work when normally working and I will share a video. Battery is brand new in keyfob and nothing aftermarket Is on the car.

Sorry for videos at night that’s all I could record since I’m not home and these were recorded yesterday

PCM P193E:00
PCM U0140:00
APIM U0140:00
APIM U024b:00
APIM U024C:00
Fcim U0155:00
IPC U0424:82
These were the stored codes it’s throwing up some bcm codes. Is there any good way to test the bcm itself or is it just a hope it’s broke and replace it?

I’ve gotten it out of this mode by disconnecting the battery and reconnecting it after 2 hours and it started 2 times and then after the 3rd it went right back to doing the same thing again

 

[SHO@Sparks]

So, after the battery disconnect, when it starts and you get it running, what is the the vehicle doing? Any observable issues?

All is normal and you can drive it, as if nothing is wrong?

It runs, but there are other issues, like being unable to get it out of Park and drive it, certain functions don't work?

Before it will start, does the push button remote work as normal, as in locking/unlocking, lights flash, horn will honk if armed and/or the panic button is pressed, remote start works, of course with all doors, trunk and hood closed?

So, I use Ford's IDS and FDRS on the vehicles I work on, but to confirm, you do have Forscan? I'm not an expert on that, but I have seen it used. Can it perform on demand tests vs just scanning for continuous memory codes that set previously? This would be helpful to know what's exactly setting codes after all are erased, it's running and then the no crank/no start occurs. I need to know what modules are setting codes then. Also, if a scan tool was connected already when it runs, leave it connected. If the concerns occur then attempt to scan it. Also, a network test to see what modules are or aren't responding at the time of the issues would be helpful to know.

As to replacing the BCM..... Yes, it could be the cause of what you're experiencing, but it would be best to diagnose it and to not just guess.

When replacing the BCM, there are multiple steps that need to be performed, it's not just plug and play. Almost nothing is nowadays on these vehicles. Replacing it with a used part can also create other issues, as the used vehicle's VIN is programmed into that module and not yours. The BCM needs to be PMI programmed and will require other steps to complete it. Also, you will need 2 push button remotes as the PATS will need to be programmed with a Parameter Reset. People wonder why it costs so much to fix diagnose and fix these vehicles. They can be fixed, but it's not always feasible without the correct scan tools or programming equipment.

 

[SHO@Sparks]

I forgot to mention that you should check your fuses and relays in the BJB/ battery junction box. There are several relays and fuses, but a few relays to check are the PCM, Run/Start, Starter Motor Relay. You can swap them with other like relays in the box. I just put a mark on them to note where they were and then see if the concerns repeat with a known good relay. Checking female pin fit of where the relays and even fuses engage into the BJB, can be helpful.

It almost seems like somewhere in the run/start circuits there is and experienced voltage drop that it causing the concerns that you're experiencing.

Can you supply your full VIN?

 

[Majestic]

What do the battery cables look like? Grounds? Starting to sound to me like a wiring/ground/fuse issue. Now that you've determined it's most likely not the battery, at least you've ruled that out. These cars can be frustrating. I'd also try to clear all codes in Forscan and see if that clears it up, at least temporarily.

Myself excluded, there are some really smart posters here that can get this figured out.

 

[gavinmalone1]

So, after the battery disconnect, when it starts and you get it running, what is the the vehicle doing? Any observable issues?

All is normal and you can drive it, as if nothing is wrong?

It runs, but there are other issues, like being unable to get it out of Park and drive it, certain functions don't work?

Before it will start, does the push button remote work as normal, as in locking/unlocking, lights flash, horn will honk if armed and/or the panic button is pressed, remote start works, of course with all doors, trunk and hood closed?

So, I use Ford's IDS and FDRS on the vehicles I work on, but to confirm, you do have Forscan? I'm not an expert on that, but I have seen it used. Can it perform on demand tests vs just scanning for continuous memory codes that set previously? This would be helpful to know what's exactly setting codes after all are erased, it's running and then the no crank/no start occurs. I need to know what modules are setting codes then. Also, if a scan tool was connected already when it runs, leave it connected. If the concerns occur then attempt to scan it. Also, a network test to see what modules are or aren't responding at the time of the issues would be helpful to know.

As to replacing the BCM..... Yes, it could be the cause of what you're experiencing, but it would be best to diagnose it and to not just guess.

When replacing the BCM, there are multiple steps that need to be performed, it's not just plug and play. Almost nothing is nowadays on these vehicles. Replacing it with a used part can also create other issues, as the used vehicle's VIN is programmed into that module and not yours. The BCM needs to be PMI programmed and will require other steps to complete it. Also, you will need 2 push button remotes as the PATS will need to be programmed with a Parameter Reset. People wonder why it costs so much to fix diagnose and fix these vehicles. They can be fixed, but it's not always feasible without the correct scan tools or programming equipment.

So when the car does start zero issues no signs at all this car has got problems no lights in the dash everything works perfectly you can even start it again however much you want in that 10 second window it gives you before opening the door. But then if the car goes into the mode it’s in now, I wouldn’t be able to read any codes on forscan as I can’t put the car into accessory mode. Since it’s fully turned off pretty much dead when it comes to scanning it or can ids scan codes even with key off ?

 

[gavinmalone1]

I forgot to mention that you should check your fuses and relays in the BJB/ battery junction box. There are several relays and fuses, but a few relays to check are the PCM, Run/Start, Starter Motor Relay. You can swap them with other like relays in the box. I just put a mark on them to note where they were and then see if the concerns repeat with a known good relay. Checking female pin fit of where the relays and even fuses engage into the BJB, can be helpful.

It almost seems like somewhere in the run/start circuits there is and experienced voltage drop that it causing the concerns that you're experiencing.

Can you supply your full VIN?

1FAHP2KT6GG143477

 

[SHO@Sparks]

So when the car does start zero issues no signs at all this car has got problems no lights in the dash everything works perfectly you can even start it again however much you want in that 10 second window it gives you before opening the door. But then if the car goes into the mode it’s in now, I wouldn’t be able to read any codes on forscan as I can’t put the car into accessory mode. Since it’s fully turned off pretty much dead when it comes to scanning it or can ids scan codes even with key off ?

Yes, even with the key or push button off IDS can sometimes communicate.

With IDS, you can manually enter the VIN and start a session on the scan tool. Then we can try to communicate to see what's occurring. Even if you attempt to turn the ignition on/off and there's no response, the scan tool will make multiple attempts and then if it's not successful, it will try another. Also, if there is no perceived communication through the DLC, you would confirm power and ground at the DLC, then perform a network test to see if any modules are communicating. There are several module networks in today's modern vehicles, such ac MS CAN, HS CAN, I CAN, FD CAN, LIN just as examples. These various networks work a different speeds. As and example, some are required for quicker, immediate needs like air bags firing in and accident.

Scan all modules and document all DTCs. Note each module and the DTCs that set specific to that module. The modules that are probably most important in the issues you're experiencing are the following: PCM, BCM, RFA and IPC. After checking relays and fuses in the BJB, then disconnect the battery cables. Take both of the removed battery cables and touch them together for 10 minutes. You can short them together with a jumper cable. Just to be clear the cables are not connected to the battery or any power source when doing this.

Next get it running again and while in this state, clear all the DTCs. Leave it running for maybe 15 minutes. When it's running open the BJB cover and tap on and wiggle the relays to see if the engine cuts off or if there are any perceived issues.

If nothing occurs and it's all normal, then shut it off. Try to see if the issues re-occur.

 

[luigisho]

Watching this with interest. All the interconnectivity by design, with proprietary software, makes me dislike modern cars more and more... but this is where we are. Interested in resolution and also trying to use FORSCAN to locate and fix things

 

[Bronco2fan]

I'm paying attention too. I would've bet it was battery related or electrical. I guess I need to learn more about Forscan too.

I'm really hoping he can figure it out. Sho@sparks seems pretty knowledgeable.

 

[gavinmalone1]

Yes, even with the key or push button off IDS can sometimes communicate.

With IDS, you can manually enter the VIN and start a session on the scan tool. Then we can try to communicate to see what's occurring. Even if you attempt to turn the ignition on/off and there's no response, the scan tool will make multiple attempts and then if it's not successful, it will try another. Also, if there is no perceived communication through the DLC, you would confirm power and ground at the DLC, then perform a network test to see if any modules are communicating. There are several module networks in today's modern vehicles, such ac MS CAN, HS CAN, I CAN, FD CAN, LIN just as examples. These various networks work a different speeds. As and example, some are required for quicker, immediate needs like air bags firing in and accident.

Scan all modules and document all DTCs. Note each module and the DTCs that set specific to that module. The modules that are probably most important in the issues you're experiencing are the following: PCM, BCM, RFA and IPC. After checking relays and fuses in the BJB, then disconnect the battery cables. Take both of the removed battery cables and touch them together for 10 minutes. You can short them together with a jumper cable. Just to be clear the cables are not connected to the battery or any power source when doing this.

Next get it running again and while in this state, clear all the DTCs. Leave it running for maybe 15 minutes. When it's running open the BJB cover and tap on and wiggle the relays to see if the engine cuts off or if there are any perceived issues.

If nothing occurs and it's all normal, then shut it off. Try to see if the issues re-occur.

I’ll definitely try all that tomorrow I’m not able to test anything today but tomorrow I’ll update the forum with any new information I found out. This is definitely a learning experience for everyone since I know this a very strange problem

 

[SHO@Sparks]

See what you get figured out and update when you can, no rush. We all have lives and families which are way more important than things such as cars.

I did see your VIN and I entered it into Ford's system successfully. So, now I can make sure I have the correct electrical schematics based on how your SHO is optioned.

 

[gavinmalone1]

Ok so some new updates to share. When it’s about to do it or wanting to go into it’s no start anti theft issue all hvac will not work. Ac and heated seats work but no a/c or heat will blow out of the vents it’s like the car disables the blower motor. Nothing on the climate controls shows there’s an issue just nothing comes out. This happens around 25 30 minutes into driving. It doesn’t happen every time just sometimes and I do know the bcm does control the hvac module in these cars. I can’t get a computer on it or at least forscan to read without it in accessory mode so the codes it’s throwing when it’s happening I can’t grab. Also around 30 minutis into driving randomly it will say no key Detected. It doesn’t disappear even with the key in the center console spot. I just click ok and it never comes back up. The thing I found out is 4 months before I owned this car a ford dealership replaced the bcm on this car. Idk if that gives it any clues into what is wrong but I feel like that’s a key piece into the cause.

 

[Bronco2fan]

Do you know if the BCM was replaced under warranty? Or the dealership who did it? Was it even a dealership or just a shop?

 

[gavinmalone1]

Do you know if the BCM was replaced under warranty? Or the dealership who did it? Was it even a dealership or just a shop?

So no on the warranty but it should have full warranty since ford repairs are 2 years unlimited miles. It was a dealership and I do know the dealership who did it. The car has 140k miles and it showing around 125k miles when it was done. It failing that quickly is very strange to me though.

 

[Zpak]

So no on the warranty but it should have full warranty since ford repairs are 2 years unlimited miles. It was a dealership and I do know the dealership who did it. The car has 140k miles and it showing around 125k miles when it was done. It failing that quickly is very strange to me though.

New doesn’t always mean good. I’d get with that dealer and ask, what the F.

 

[SHO@Sparks]

Ok so some new updates to share. When it’s about to do it or wanting to go into it’s no start anti theft issue all hvac will not work. Ac and heated seats work but no a/c or heat will blow out of the vents it’s like the car disables the blower motor. Nothing on the climate controls shows there’s an issue just nothing comes out. This happens around 25 30 minutes into driving. It doesn’t happen every time just sometimes and I do know the bcm does control the hvac module in these cars. I can’t get a computer on it or at least forscan to read without it in accessory mode so the codes it’s throwing when it’s happening I can’t grab. Also around 30 minutis into driving randomly it will say no key Detected. It doesn’t disappear even with the key in the center console spot. I just click ok and it never comes back up. The thing I found out is 4 months before I owned this car a ford dealership replaced the bcm on this car. Idk if that gives it any clues into what is wrong but I feel like that’s a key piece into the cause.

Thanks for the updated information, especially about noticing the HVAC becoming inoperable first.

The HVAC module controls the HVAC system. In the electrical schematic for the dual automatic temperature control the BCM module which has fuses in it, supplies power to the HVAC module through Fuse F46 10 A on connector C228A pin 26.

In reviewing the network on this vehicle I noticed both the BCM and HVAC modules have terminating resistors in them for the MS CAN network. The BCM has both networks going to it, as in the MS CAN and the HS CAN. The RFA module also is on the MS CAN. This may explain why multiple concerns are occurring when the car won't start.

I am able to see on Ford's online OASIS system any time the vehicle's VIN has been run through Ford's system whether it be a warranty inquiry or it was at a dealership and a scan tool was hooked up. Unfortunately, I'm unable to see the name of the dealer, but I can see the dates. There is definitely recent activity in the past few months. In review of this information, I can see that various times different directions for diagnostics were searched. Also, I can see that the procedures for removal of the RFA module and the BCM module were searched along with the PMI procedure for BCM programming.

That being said, I have to believe that these concerns have been on-going, but possibly not resolved with the parts replaced. They concerns may also have been quite intermittent, making them tough to catch in the act for accurate diagnosis.

There is a tool on IDS and FDRS called Live Monitor Network that more than likely would be helpful in seeing exactly what is happening first. As an example, a particular module could have an internal issue on the MS CAN. It in turn can cause the MS CAN to go down momentarily which when the vehicle is turned off, then the other issues show up.

If you're able to take it back to the original dealer and you can explain all of these details, it may be helpful in getting this resolved. I know people hate taking it to the dealer, but in this situation, it may be beneficial since this is not an easily diagnosed concern, at least remotely. I do like diagnosing these harder problems, but like anything, it takes time to be accurate, especially with intermittent issues like this.

 

[SHOrod]

With Forscan are you able to monitor the CAN network topology map? If so, capture what it looks like when the car is working properly, and compare against what it looks like when it won't start. If there are a few modules that don't show up as active when in the no start condition, see if they share a power bus somewhere.

Last Spring I ran into an issue on my Charger Daytona 392 where certain modules would go non-responsive while driving. It was very random. And when they came back was also random. One of the systems that would go down is the HVAC, which is what triggered this memory for me. I found through looking over the network topology map that several modules were dropping out, but not always the same modules. However, after monitoring the map during several failures, I was able to determine that all the ones having communication issues were on the same CAN-bus and shared a common high-current relay. Then, monitoring the switched side of the relay I was able to see that when modules started to go unresponsive, the switched output voltage was between 6.5 and 8.9 volts. Some modules were more sensitive to brownout than others, explaining why the topology map didn't always show issues with the same modules. So after a few weeks of troubleshooting, my issue was solved with a $25 70-amp relay.

-Rod

 

[SHO@Sparks]

If you still want to attempt to get it figured on your own, I will try to help where possible.

There are some ways you can monitor power to modules by back probing a small light into the power feed of a module, like for example the HVAC module, but it's not as easily accessed, unless you disassemble some of the dash to gain access. So, when the bulb is wired into the power circuit, you can see that it's receiving power by the bulb being lit. If while driving the bulb were to go out and it was wired into the power feed to the HVAC module, then you know that you just lost power to the module and you might find that it's unresponsive now.

In my previous response I pointed out that the HVAC nodule receives power from the BCM through Fuse F46 10 A on connector C228A pin 26. You could back probe carefully with a small pin into the back side of C228A at pin 26 and have that supply power to the small light you temporarily wired into the circuit and you would supply a ground to make the circuit complete. When you start the vehicle, that pin should now be supplied power and should stay that way until you turn the car off. You said that the HVAC can stop working while driving. With the bulb wired in and on, if you see the bulb go out, then the BCM just lost it's supplied BCM power. Hope this makes sense.

This doesn't condemn anything just yet, but it now tells you that something either in the BCM just opened the circuit or there is another issue causing it to do so.

Basically, the BCM like other modules, has power and ground, possibly a few of each, like a Hot At All Times and switched power from say an input like the ignition, then a few network connections as in MS CAN and HS CAN, followed by inputs and outputs. The BCM has a lot of control, but it relies on multiple other modules to do work too.

As Rod indicated, if you can read the networks modules live while your driving with Forscan than you can see what happens when the HVAC goes dead.

Interestingly, the HVAC panel with dual automatic temperature control, as many know, can have issues with the touch capacitive switches going nuts and driving the HVAC system into odd loops of operation, like full hot, full cold, etc.