Got bored interesting discovery Regarding engines

[DARTHSHO]

https://parts.ford.com/shop/en/us/engine/new-gas-engines

The 3.7 3.5 and 3.5 ecoboost all share the same long block. So does this mean a 3.7 swap with the same turbos and set up is doable? I got bored as was looking up car parts lol.

 

[DARTHSHO]

did some more looking around and it seems even the long block for the mustangs are part 6006 so either their website is wrong for parts or this is really crazy

 

[SHOdded]

supersixmotorsports.com

 

[rubydist]

The part number for all Ford long blocks is 6006. If you read up on Ford part numbering scheme this will make sense to you.

Clearly the 3.7 long block is different from the 3.5 long block, because the displacement is different. However, the main part number for both is the 6006 number.

 

[skyshadow07]

I like how on supersix page they state "with the stroker kit AND PORTED HEADS they got 70hp. I feel like ported heads would do a lot of that for you.

 

[Eric Morris]

I like how on supersix page they state "with the stroker kit AND PORTED HEADS they got 70hp. I feel like ported heads would do a lot of the for you.

Ported heads only do you any good if you use their improved ability to move air, to actually move more air! Upping the displacement is one way to guarantee more airflow into the cylinder. Upping the boost is another.

Ford increased the bore size to get to 3.7 over the 3.5L. I would not want thinner cylinder walls in a turbo charged engine. You'd be better off to just up the boost a little to get the same power bump.

 

[skyshadow07]

I think you are 1) oversimplifying the effect of a ported head (runner capacity, restrictions, etc) and 2) forgetting about efficiency potentials.
In short, you do not need to increase engine stroke or bore to see power from cylinder head porting. An engine is an air pump. The more efficiently it can pull in air, the more power it will create.

 

[SaveMelMac]

Upping the engine displacement is an old school way of thinking to increase airflow. It’s all in the cylinder head. That’s how all these modem engines are making more power with smaller displacement. Some 2.0l engines are making close to 200hp without any forced induction.

 

[Majestic]

Upping the engine displacement is an old school way of thinking to increase airflow. It’s all in the cylinder head. That’s how all these modem engines are making more power with smaller displacement. Some 2.0l engines are making close to 200hp without any forced induction.

Sure. But I think the 8 speed or CVT has a lot to do with being able to live with the highly stressed, smaller engines.

 

[rubydist]

imho, the biggest thing that allows the smaller engines to have the higher power output is the variable valve timing. Valve timing is always a compromise, but vvt allows the engine to have good torque at low rpms for driveability and economy while still allowing better breathing at higher rpms for higher power output.

 

[stripSHO]

A 3.7 might bolt in but I can't imagine the juice being worth that much $queeze unless you're already replacing a blown motor.

@skyshadow07 The point is that in order for head porting to have any significant value it first needs to be a point of significant restriction. To assume that head porting automatically increases flow or even that increased flow automatically increases power is also a gross oversimplification. None of these are givens; you can actually lose power putting a race head on a setup that can't utilize it.

@SaveMelMac those engines also have higher compression, huge cam duration, and rev to 9000 RPM. You're still only talking about < 80 cfm per cylinder so it's not impressive head flow by any stretch of the imagination. and Ruby's 100% right - you'd never see those cars on the street without VVT because they'd be practically impossible to drive in traffic. Aside from that, torque is non-existent in such an engine and requires efficiency-robbing gearing to achieve decent acceleration. The result is a car like an s2000 getting the same mpg as my SHO despite a 1500 lb weight advantage and presumptively better aerodynamics.

Let's see a four banger win in top fuel or pro mod. Then we can talk about how irrelevant displacement is!

 

[SaveMelMac]

I didn’t say displacement was irrelevant. All the advances in engine technology has been in the cylinder head, vvt, vtec, **** even DOHC. How is ford now making 415 hp with the 5.0 coyote vs small block 5.0 with 225 hp. It’s all in the cylinder head.

 

[stripSHO]

Yes that's all great stuff that I can't add to my ecoboost since it's already there. And none of that alphabet soup has anything to do with making power but with making power more street-able.
I'll assume you don't actually think 225 hp is all Ford could squeeze out of their fox body mustangs and skip the sermon on the 1000's of reasons why that was the product they marketed at the time. But I will point out that those cars were (and still are) wildly popular precisely because simple bolt-on mods like swapping heads were good for 100 hp instantly because they were a huge restriction for that car. That would've been a pipe dream for the 2.3L version. And it obviously wasn't 4V DOHC VCT heads being put on.

All I'm saying is that displacement is a baseline multiplier for every other change you do to a motor. If you wanted to dump a couple grand into a port and valve job you're likely to get vastly better results bolting them to a 4.0 than a 3.5. But I'd be far more worried about cams and turbine sizes before I played with the heads one bit.

 

[stripSHO]

Funny side story - I actually drove a 2.3L auto fox body in high school and I worked at the dragstrip. I'm pretty sure I hold the unofficial track record for all-time slowest "full power" pass. It was about 23.5 seconds @ 59 mph,which was almost two whole seconds slower than an earlier pass I made when the engine was still cold lol

 

[luigisho]

It’s all in the cylinder head.

along with a little 10cc extra displacement and 20%+ increase in compression ratio. Not all but yeah

 

[SaveMelMac]

Yes that's all great stuff that I can't add to my ecoboost since it's already there. And none of that alphabet soup has anything to do with making power but with making power more street-able.
I'll assume you don't actually think 225 hp is all Ford could squeeze out of their fox body mustangs and skip the sermon on the 1000's of reasons why that was the product they marketed at the time. But I will point out that those cars were (and still are) wildly popular precisely because simple bolt-on mods like swapping heads were good for 100 hp instantly because they were a huge restriction for that car. That would've been a pipe dream for the 2.3L version. And it obviously wasn't 4V DOHC VCT heads being put on.

All I'm saying is that displacement is a baseline multiplier for every other change you do to a motor. If you wanted to dump a couple grand into a port and valve job you're likely to get vastly better results bolting them to a 4.0 than a 3.5. But I'd be far more worried about cams and turbine sizes before I played with the heads one bit.

yes exactly what I said it’s all In the cylinder head bolt on some trickflows, rhs or whatever you can get a legit 100hp all with the same displacement. Can you get 100 more hp by using the stock e7 heads on a 347? I think not.

 

[stripSHO]

I can think of a few different ways to get 100 more hp out of a 5.0 without ever removing a valve cover.
Can you pull 100 more hp from a small displacement motor with nothing but a head swap? I think not.
Do you need DOHC TiVCT heads to get 415 hp from a 5.0? I think not.
Do you need custom porting/polishing of 2V heads to get 415 hp from a 5.0? I think not.
Would ported race heads flow any more air through a stock 3.5 Ecoboost than the cams and turbos will allow? I think not.

 

[Eric Morris]

Head improvements are second order. Yes, it helps make a little more power, but it's not the driving factor, oir even close to it. Especially when we are talking computer designed 4V heads. They aren't exactly corked up from the factory.

The main thing in making power is simply this -> how many 02 molecules are in the cylinder that you can use to combust fuel?

Headwork helps with that, but not much with modern heads. More displacement, or higher boost is the BY FAR dominant factor.

 

[Eric Morris]

yes exactly what I said it’s all In the cylinder head bolt on some trickflows, rhs or whatever you can get a legit 100hp all with the same displacement. Can you get 100 more hp by using the stock e7 heads on a 347? I think not.

We aren't talking about E7s on a 347. We are talking about well designed 4V heads on a stock displacement engine. Of course if you choke it down enough, then head work would be beneficial, but that's not the case here at all.

 

[yaycandy]

supersixmotorsports.com

Neat site