LMS vs Gearhead "Canned Tunes" Comparison

[OmaHahn]

*PLEASE NOTE: Any more comments about the shifting issues please go over to the thread titled, "LMS 3 bar V11 93 bounces off rev limiter." That thread is 100% about the shifting issues. This thread is more about DYNO, WHP, and WTQ numbers between LMS and Gearhead. I just happened to mention that I am curious if my shifting issues go away with the Gearhead tune and that caught on like wildfire. Thanks!

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/&share_type=t

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Understood. I have a problem with creating a video of the issue. No two failed shifts are exactly alike. Again, do not use the customer to gather knowledge. If the motor fails due to misfire or over-rev, I will be paying the bill to replace it. When I write in, I will ask for the new tune, as well as a replacement V10 exactly like my old one. If the new one fails, I will go back to v10, and go away happily. The V10 took over a half a second off my ET and increased my gas mileage by almost 10%. That is a bargain, and I don't want to think about temperature or adequate fuel pressure or any other contributing factor when it's time to smoke a pesky Subaru. The new tune either works or it doesn't. I NEVER had problem until I installed the V11's. Maybe my car is maxed out at v10, and I'm okay with that.
Respectfully,
Shoblock

If you are having two different missed shift issues we need to see them, we cannot just chase a problem with any type of hands on or videos of the subject that needs to be handled, its like chasing our own tales and there is only so much we can go off of on word alone,as for the v10 we do not give out old tunes anymore for the fact that there was an update for a reason, updates fix alot of bugs ect that go on that we find when running cars on the dyno so we chnaged that tune for a reason therefore we will not provide it anymore, i would try the new tune out and if the issue is just hitting a limiter im very confident that this will fix the issue but without a video like i said we can only do our best when all the cars we have had here havent had the issue. If a vehicle in the shop we were working on had this issue it wouldve been addressed long ago but alas we have not had that happen so we are going off other peoples words but with no videos.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

*PLEASE NOTE: Any more comments about the shifting issues please go over to the thread titled, "LMS 3 bar V11 93 bounces off rev limiter." That thread is 100% about the shifting issues. This thread is more about DYNO, WHP, and WTQ numbers between LMS and Gearhead. I just happened to mention that I am curious if my shifting issues go away with the Gearhead tune and that caught on like wildfire. Thanks!

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=156498&share_tid=138591&url=https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/LMS-3-bar-V11-93-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/&share_type=t

will move conversation over to there, did not see this until after the reply was made

 

[StealBlueSho]

Those numbers are pretty good for a "plug, forgot about it, and play" tune. I have nothing bad to say about LMS. I am actually glad they are the way they are. They allow all walks of people to really enjoy the EB motors.

Your car is roughly making 430 ish hp and 480 ish TQ at the crank. I use a 20% drive train loss in my calculations. Some people would argue that 25% is more accurate which would make those numbers even higher. Nothing to sneeze about.

Also need to factor that mustang dynos are not used for industry standard power numbers. Dynojets are used for those and are accepted as the defacto power numbers. Mustang, dynodyamics, etc are great for tuning as they can adjusted to put more load on the rollers giving the people tuning more accurate data for adjustments. At least as I understand it.

That all being said... mustang dynos read typically 10% or more LESS than a dyno jet unless the shop specifically calibrated the mustang dyno to match what Dynojet does which most do not.

So on a dyno jet the numbers would be higher. Around 366HP and 429TQ which seems about right... there is a YouTube video of guy with the v11 tune with the same mods plus DPs running 444tq and 375hp I think.


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[OmaHahn]

Also need to factor that mustang dynos are not used for industry standard power numbers. Dynojets are used for those and are accepted as the defacto power numbers. Mustang, dynodyamics, etc are great for tuning as they can adjusted to put more load on the rollers giving the people tuning more accurate data for adjustments. At least as I understand it.

That all being said... mustang dynos read typically 10% or more LESS than a dyno jet unless the shop specifically calibrated the mustang dyno to match what Dynojet does which most do not.

So on a dyno jet the numbers would be higher. Around 366HP and 429TQ which seems about right... there is a YouTube video of guy with the v11 tune with the same mods plus DPs running 444tq and 375hp I think.


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Yes! There's another guy on YouTube with my exact mods on his white 2016 SHO and like mine has PP, etc. Love his videos. He went to a Dynojet and his numbers vs my Mustang dyno...

Mustang Dyno: 333 & 390
Dynojet: 349 & 429

 

[SM105K]

Yes! There's another guy on YouTube with my exact mods on his white 2016 SHO and like mine has PP, etc. He's a little different, but love his videos. He went to a Dynojet and his numbers vs my Mustang dyno...

Mustang Dyno: 333 & 390
Dynojet: 349 & 429

John is on this forum......

 

[StealBlueSho]

John is on this forum......

Is he? Love his videos.


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[SM105K]

Is he? Love his videos.


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He sure is. It has been nice to watch his progressions and mods with his SHO.

 

[StealBlueSho]

He sure is. It has been nice to watch his progressions and mods with his SHO.

What’s his username?


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[SM105K]

What’s his username?


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JohnBlueGT.......lol.

 

[shoblock]

Agreed wholeheartedly w/ Bruce!!

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I will be on my 4th iteration of the v11 tune from Livernois when I get back on the road in February. I'm currently running the LMS 93v11 SHIFT 3BAR, and Livernois is giving an excellent effort at trying to solve my issue. This latest iteration is the best so far for my no shift/overrev issue, but it's still not perfect. I intend to drive it the full two weeks before I decide if it's okay, and ask for the fourth, new iteration if it is not.
My issue is that Livernois uses customer feedback to re-write programs. If I blow my motor trying to get a video of a bouncing red tach needle while my rev limiter works hard and the car appears to be stuck in neutral at 7 grand, Livernois will not pay for a new motor and transmission.
I watch up to 500 of these motors a day being built. Ford makes an enormous effort to make sure each motor is exactly like the next. There is a Quality meeting each morning in the plant, and any failure anywhere in the United States to an engine under warranty is discussed and dealt with. Nothing should ever happen twice if the issue is properly dealt with after the first occurence.
See where I'm going?
As a supplier, I have to bring data to support my solving of an issue. Lab reports, x-rays, chemistries, and data-backed sample runs are some examples of the proof my customer requires to prove I solved an issue. My word isn't good enough.
For Livernois to prove they are worthy of my business, I would like to see: 1. How many Taurus SHO's have been updated with the v-11 tune. 2. How many have not reported anything but perfect results. 3. How many have reported problem issues. 4.How many have not reported.
This would be followed by the Livernois corrective actions report: Of the N reported problem issues, N were solved with Program A, N were solved with program B, etc.
This would give us a little more confidence when we are asked to risk the well being of our motors.
I'm not asking them to reveal proprietary secrets, just to report on the progress of getting this under control.
Respectfully,
Shoblock

 

[shoblock]

I think there is something besides plugs going on. His plugs are probably fine, GH strongly recommends the SP-542 at .028 for their auto octane tune...

There are quite a few people apparently with this issue of the rpms bouncing off the limiter with traction control on or off.

I know it’s a concern brought up on the Facebook forums a lot as well.

Not sure what’s up.. one or two with the issue.. eh.. but several with the issue? Dunno... might be worth looking into?

LMS 3 bar V11 93 bounces off rev limiter
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=156498&share_tid=138591&url=https://shoforum.com/index.php?threads/LMS-3-bar-V11-93-bounces-off-rev-limiter.138591/&share_type=t


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My car does not have the pp option. Detailed symptoms described elsewhere in this series.

 

[StealBlueSho]

I will be on my 4th iteration of the v11 tune from Livernois when I get back on the road in February. I'm currently running the LMS 93v11 SHIFT 3BAR, and Livernois is giving an excellent effort at trying to solve my issue. This latest iteration is the best so far for my no shift/overrev issue, but it's still not perfect. I intend to drive it the full two weeks before I decide if it's okay, and ask for the fourth, new iteration if it is not.
My issue is that Livernois uses customer feedback to re-write programs. If I blow my motor trying to get a video of a bouncing red tach needle while my rev limiter works hard and the car appears to be stuck in neutral at 7 grand, Livernois will not pay for a new motor and transmission.
I watch up to 500 of these motors a day being built. Ford makes an enormous effort to make sure each motor is exactly like the next. There is a Quality meeting each morning in the plant, and any failure anywhere in the United States to an engine under warranty is discussed and dealt with. Nothing should ever happen twice if the issue is properly dealt with after the first occurence.
See where I'm going?
As a supplier, I have to bring data to support my solving of an issue. Lab reports, x-rays, chemistries, and data-backed sample runs are some examples of the proof my customer requires to prove I solved an issue. My word isn't good enough.
For Livernois to prove they are worthy of my business, I would like to see: 1. How many Taurus SHO's have been updated with the v-11 tune. 2. How many have not reported anything but perfect results. 3. How many have reported problem issues. 4.How many have not reported.
This would be followed by the Livernois corrective actions report: Of the N reported problem issues, N were solved with Program A, N were solved with program B, etc.
This would give us a little more confidence when we are asked to risk the well being of our motors.
I'm not asking them to reveal proprietary secrets, just to report on the progress of getting this under control.
Respectfully,
Shoblock

I’m not even sure where to begin with this.... sounds like you want stock reliability with a tune. Almost sounds like you are asking for guarantee that the tune is safe.

If you want promises then stick with a stock calibration.


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[bpd1151]

Wouldn't it be grand if we could all have our cake and eat it too?

LOL

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[SHOdded]

Maybe some dyno time at Livernois would help address this issue? As far as details, I don't expect them to reveal details, no corporate entity does. But acknowledgement IS there, albeit vague enough for detail-oriented people. LOL. I think I would physically go to Livernois to try and get it fixed once and for all. Maybe they will find out they can, maybe they won't. But remote tuning only gets you so far.

 

[brucelinc]

My issue is that Livernois uses customer feedback to re-write programs. If I blow my motor trying to get a video of a bouncing red tach needle while my rev limiter works hard and the car appears to be stuck in neutral at 7 grand, Livernois will not pay for a new motor and transmission.

Shoblock

With all due respect, tuning is not for everyone. Most tuners other than Livernois have you perform multiple datalogging sessions to dial in a tune. Often those sessions involve WOT running through the first 3 gears as well as a long pull in 3rd gear from low RPM.

While there is merit to this approach, there is also an element of trial and error as well as risk. If the tuner "errors," it is unlikely he will pay for any damage being done, nor will he pay you for any speeding tickets you incur while performing the datalogging or compensate you for the additional wear/tear from those multiple WOT sessions. I met a guy at the drag strip who had over 20 revisions to his SHO from a well-known tuner based in Florida. I had my MKS with just a Livernois tune. I beat him like a drum and he was ******. He had also just paid a $300 fine for a ticket he received while datalogging.

I have had cars tuned both ways....the Livernois way where they base their tunes on experience with many cars of the same platform as well as the datalogging way. There is an element of risk either way that is the responsibility of the car owner. Having said all this, I do understand the frustration of having a tune that seems to cause problems or create issues that were not there when stock.

 

[bpd1151]

Agreed with SHOdded and Bruce once again.

1st off, shoblock should be commended for his articulate, well written posts.

However, if he's not willing to (or not able to) provide the information that LMS is asking for, then their ability to attempt resolving the issue will in turn, be limited.

So sage advice on him bringing his SHO to their facility for indepth analaysis/resolution.

Personally, I think dictating how a vendor should resolve an issue, based upon how his own company handles matters, is a stretch.

In an ideal world I suppose everything would be done how we all each expect it to be done, based upon our own opinions, research, education, etc.

But reality often stipulates otherwise.

So I hope he, and the few others that have expressed concerns, do truly get them resolved. Patience, communication and working together is tantamount to a positive outcome.

Good luck to all.


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[shoblock]

Agreed with SHOdded and Bruce once again.

1st off, shoblock should be commended for his articulate, well written posts.

However, if he's not willing to (or not able to) provide the information that LMS is asking for, then their ability to attempt resolving the issue will in turn, be limited.

So sage advice on him bringing his SHO to their facility for indepth analaysis/resolution.

Personally, I think dictating how a vendor should resolve an issue, based upon how his own company handles matters, is a stretch.

In an ideal world I suppose everything would be done how we all each expect it to be done, based upon our own opinions, research, education, etc.

But reality often stipulates otherwise.

So I hope he, and the few others that have expressed concerns, do truly get them resolved. Patience, communication and working together is tantamount to a positive outcome.

Good luck to all.


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As I stated, I will finish my testing of the 'shift' program last sent, then try the further revised program, IF NECESSARY. Before v11, I was happy with my v10 program which behaved flawlessly. 1/2 second better than stock, improved gas mileage, NEVER a missed shift. So I am not asking the impossible. If either of the v11 tunes gives me v10 reliability, I will sing the praises of Livernois.
Shoblock

 

[OmaHahn]

RESULTS ARE IN!

My business trip got canceled so I was able to jump on this project a lot sooner. *I want to start off by saying it is NOT my intentions to bad-mouth anyone or try to hurt a business - all I'm doing is providing real-word results and factual conditions regarding my car.

I have 2 results to provide: 1) Dyno Results and 2) Shifting Issues:

I loaded the canned tune from Gearhead (it's their automatic octane adjusting tune) and installed new 542 plugs gapped to .027. That's all I did.

Again, my mods are 3-bar, Windstorm CAI, 542 plugs, 160 thermostat, and Magnaflow Cat-Back.

Mustang Dyno Results:

1. LMS:
   • 333 WHP
   • 390 WTQ
2. Gearhead:
   • 347 WHP
   • 395 WTQ

Not a huge increase but it's more.

Shifting Issues:

LMS 93 V11 tune. My car would act like it pops out of gear into Neutral mostly from 2-3 shift under WOT and rev up to like 8k. Also, when cruising on the highway anywhere from 50mph+ and I floor it, the car goes but there's a minor hesitation / sputtering type issue going on. The car accelerates but you can feel a hesitation at same time. LMS has been excellent in communicating with me on this, however they said it's probably a fuel pump / module issue and there's some TSB about this, could be fuel pressure issue, etc. Well.....

Gearhead tune. BOTH shifting issues are now gone! I loaded my Gearhead tune 3 days ago and been running around town, I put about 40 easy miles on it then started some WOT runs. From a standstill, 10mph roll, 50mph roll, etc the shifting is flawless and no hesitation. And it seems weird but the shifts are lightning fast, not harsh, just instant.

*Last note: my performance shop said they really liked the new tune I installed (they didn't know what tunes I had or where they came from until after all these tests). My performance shop said the shift points are much better and that with the smaller turbos on these cars the rpms don't need to be high as that actually hurts the performance and a bunch of other real technical stuff I honestly didn't understand! I should've recorded them on video.

These are just my results and not intended otherwise. I appreciate all the feedback and discussions we're having on this tread - thanks to everyone. Good to luck to all !!!

 

[StealBlueSho]

Do you have the graphs?!

Btw: excellent comparison and associated data! Thank you!

And just to clarify the Auto Octane tune requires no datalogging?

So both the LMS and GH tunes were flash and go with no datalogging required?


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