water pump pics

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DavidT

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Here are some pics. I got
the pump off. Now I guess I need to replace both O rings. Look at the
seal between the water pump and the w. pump housing (middle pic)It is
only 5 mos. old. It appears to be deteriorated.?.
So I need to replace THAT seal and both O rings. Anything else?
I found the O ring on the tube behind the pump (top pic). The other O
ring is supposed to be on the water pump housing, right? If it is, it
appears to be embedded in, look at the top of the bottom pic. ?????? I dunno.
I guess thats it for now :)
Oh yeah, my CPS is only 5 mos. old. Coolant flooded it:( when I removed
the w. pump. Will it be okay?????????
does the Felpro water pump gasket set (70425) contain both O rings I need, as well as the gasket needed in the middle pic?

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: dkautumna ]</small>
 

videot

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dkautumna:
...Coolant flooded it:( when I removed
the w. pump. Will it be okay?????????
does the Felpro water pump gasket set (70425) contain both O rings I need, as well as the gasket needed in the middle pic?
yes and yes
the only thing you have to worry about is the timing belt. when i did my wp, i didnt take off the timing belt and nothing ill has happened yet

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: videot ]</small>
 

sdpatt

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You are not supposed to get oil or coolant on the timing belt. Exposing the belt to either will shorten its lifetime. Ethylene glycol in the anti-freeze is very slippery stuff and will lessen the traction that the belt has on the pulley teeth.

The CPS should be okay, but I'd used some compressed air to get all of the wetness and dirt off of the sensor.

From the top picture of the valley, it looks like the leak was flowing down the valley to the pump area. Did you drain the coolant from the radiator's drain before you removed the pump? If that coolant stains in the valley were there before you removed the pump, you need to remove the metal crossover pipe and inspect the other end of it at the thermostat end. You can get the O-rings in the water pump gasket set and also at hardware stores for less than 50 cents each.

It doesn't look like the pump was the source of the leak. Maybe one of the outlet seals. Investigate and solve before putting it back together or you wil be right back in the same (watering) hole.

The water pump's case gasket will come apart like that no matter how old it is. It is a fiber gasket that is not designed to be reused like all of the molded rubber seals we see on the SHO. The Fel-Pro ES70425 gsaket set can be had at local auto supplies for about $6 or RockAuto.com for $4.88.
 

rangerj

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DK,

OK buddy, we are getting there. All of the gasket material has to be cleaned off of the mating surfaces, without scratching, nicking, or gouging the surfaces.

You can use a "widget" to scrape the heavy stuff off, and then finish it with fine steel wool or 600 wet/dry sandpaper (400 would also be OK), or one of those 3M "scuff pads" (fine or medium).

Look at your top picture. Do you see the tube that runs through the valley? It is inserted into the back of the thermostat housing and is sealed with an "O" ring. I do not remember any mechanical fastener.

I think it is held in by being "trapped" between the thermostat housing and the water pump. SDPATT, is this correct? Is there a mechanical fastener at the thermostat end? If not, then you can gently twist and pull the tube and its "O" ring out of the thermostat housing.

Now, inspect the tube for any signs of a leak, like a pin hole, or a spot corroded through. To be sure it is not leaking, clean it up with steel wool or fine sand paper. Then plug one end with a rag and apply air pressure at the other end with a rag wrapped around the source of the air.

Or, you could plug one end and fill it with water, or coolant, and look for a leak. If no leaks are due to the tube, put a new "O" ring on the end that goes over to the thermostat housing, and insert it into the housing.

Then proceed with the waterpump. Clean the "o" ring surfaces also. SDPatt, in the top picture (DKs)do the two threaded holes on the block require a thread sealer on these bolts?

DK, see your prior thread for more information about putting things back together. If you are going to re-use the coolant, filter it when you add it to the system. Paint filters work well, and so do old ***** hose! :rolleyes: rangerj
 

shojuan

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I don't think you need sealer on any of the bolts. You might want to use some RTV on the new paper gasket between the case halves. I like permatex ultra gray myself. Do NOT use RTV on any of the o-rings!! Make sure you get all those o-ring surfaces nice and clean. When all the physical stuff is cleaned off and you have nice smooth shiny metal then wipe the surfaces with a lint free cloth and a good solvent like acetone, lacquer thinner or pure alcohol. Right before putting the assemblies back in place **** up the o-rings with some KY jelly. Just get a cheap tube of generic at walmart. Silicone grease also works well. You can just get a $.99 packet of the "Counterman's choice" spark plug dialectric grease or brake caliper grease at your parts store. I myself use a little tub of silicone grease that's meant for lubing my scuba cylinder's o-rings. The only thing special about that stuff though is that it's food grade.

If you have any problems keeping the o-ring in place when inserting the crossover tube into the thermostat housing then try using two long, thin sticks to keep it in place. I'm assuming that there's a ****** on the thermostat end of the crossover tube and that the o-ring sits on the tube end of then ******. I've never seen the thermostat housing end so I'm not sure about that.
 

DavidT

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would Blue RTV silicone gasket dresser be ok to use on the 2 paper gaskets? It is the only RTV I have. Also, does it matter which side of the gaskets I apply it to, or do both sides?
2. Whats a widget? (to scrape off the old gasket with)
3. Where does the other O ring go? (I assume it is over the top hole (in the bottom pic)?
4. What are the torque specs, if any, for the bolts to the metal tube (in the same pic.)?
5. For the O rings, I have Vasoline and dielectric spark plug grease?Which should I use? Just apply it on the outside of the O ring?
 

shojuan

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dkautumna:
would Blue RTV silicone gasket dresser be ok to use on the 2 paper gaskets? It is the only RTV I have. Also, does it matter which side of the gaskets I apply it to, or do both sides?
2. Whats a widget? (to scrape off the old gasket with)
3. Where does the other O ring go? (I assume it is over the top hole (in the bottom pic)?
4. What are the torque specs, if any, for the bolts to the metal tube (in the same pic.)?
5. For the O rings, I have Vasoline and dielectric spark plug grease?Which should I use? Just apply it on the outside of the O ring?
1. Sure, go ahead and use the blue RTV. Put a thin continuous bead on one or both sides, whichever you feel like. Last time I put RTV on a paper water pump gasket I put it on both sides.

2.Maybe the "widget" that rangerj is talking about is a razor blade holder. If you don't have one just use a razor blade held firmly between your fingers. Scrape away, but be careful.

3. Yeah, top hole in the bottom pic.

4. Hmmm. I don't know the torque specs to those bolts off hand. If nobody comes forward with the specs then just get them good and snug.

5. Use the dielectric spark plug grease. It's a silicone grease and should be just fine for the o-rings. Do not use vaseline. It's less friendly to the rubber. You want to coat the o-ring all the way around. There's nothing wrong with using a nice thick coat although a thin coat would probably be fine. Just put a good blob between your (clean) thumb and forefinger and roll the o-ring between your fingers until the whole thing is greased. Use the grease to your advantage, however. A dab in the water pump to block groove could be useful for holding the greased o-ring in place.
 

rangerj

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DK,

SHOJUAN has you covered real good. A widget is a razor blade scraper I get at K-mart and Wallmart. It makes for a good gasket scraper for soft metal like aluminum. I do not like to use an automotive gasket scraper on soft metals as it is to easy to gouge or nick the metal.

The gasket surfaces should be nice and clean, and smooth. From the looks of the holes and the pump case that fits against the block, the two bolts should have a thread sealer.

I agree we SHOJAUN on the thin coat of RTV on the paper gaskets. Thin is the operative word. RTV does not compress much. Thats why it can be used as a gasket all by it self.

The silicone grease on the "O" rings is also a good idea. SHOJAUN you are right about vasoline being less than friendly to rubber. However, the "O" rings these days are neopreme (sp), and vasoline is not as caustic as say ball joint grease.

That having been said I like the silicone grease idea as a better alternative. The KY jelly as a **** for insertion is OK, but the silicone grease will stay in place for a long time. The KY will dry out in a day or two.

The top hole in the bottom picture does get an "O" ring. The "O" ring forms the seal between the block and the pump body. Clean the surface of the block where this "O" ring will be. The silicone grease will help hold the "O" ring in place when you put the pump back on.

I am not near my reference sources so I can't give you torque specs. The torqe amounts are not high amounts, so either look them up in a search, go to the library, or hope someone will post them, please!

Did you ever get the crank sprocket off?
rangerj

SHOJAUN, You go SCUBA diving? I don't swim where the fish are bigger than me!
 

DavidT

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thanks for the info. guys,
priceless thumbs_u
The crank sprocket came off easily with just a little PB Blaster... Boy, this stuff is as good as everyone claims!
I am hesitant to pull out the crossover tube to replace the other O ring :( The "valley" is pretty dry from what I can tell) (besides having a lot of debris shrug )
If the O ring near the thermostat was bad, wouldn't the entire valley be wet?
The O ring that goes between the block and the w. pump... is there a groove for it to fit in????


I was wondering... what causes a water pump to go bad/fail? When it fails, does it leak, or does the engine just get hotter (due to lack of circulation), or both? This may be an idiotic thing to ask, but for the first time in my life, I am almost understanding how things work under the hood of a car! :cool:


*edit*
I just took a look at my w. pump. Crud!. Look at the bottom pic.. Look at the bolt hole at the 12 o'clock position. It has a broken off bolt in it squint
Is this critical to get repaired before reinstalling?

<small>[ February 17, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: dkautumna ]</small>
 

DavidT

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My remanufactured pump from rockauto.com ($40) only came with the one paper gasket if I'm not mistaken. The Felpro gasket set (70425) has 2 O rings and 2 paper gaskets ($5 from rockauto.com)
 

DavidT

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repost from earlier...
******edit*
I just took a look at my w. pump. Crud!. Look at the bottom pic.. Look at the bolt hole at the 12 o'clock position. It has a broken off bolt in it
Is this critical to get repaired before reinstalling?
*******
squint
 

DavidT

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well, the leak was coming from somewhere behind the water pump. Do you know what length/ size bolt goes there?
 

rangerj

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DK,
YES, IT IS CRITICAL TO REMOVE THE BROKEN PIECE OF BOLT BEFORE PUTTING THE PUMP BACK ON THE MOTOR.

I think you found the source of your leak. That broken piece of bolt has to come out of there. The problem is that the pump part is aluminum, i.e. soft metal. The bolt is "HARD" metal.

I think you can safely leave the "crossover" tub and its "O" ring in the thermostat housing. A pressure test can be done before you put the intake back on. If it does not leak you will not have to disturb it.

Now for the broken bolt. The goal is going to be to carefully drill into the center of the broken piece of bolt, and extract it. If the pump is not that old the two different metals should not be fused together.

Sears sells a broken bolt extractor set. There are three or four different sizes of drill bits and an extractor attached to each drill bit.

When the hole is deep enough into the bolt it grabs onto the piece and screws it out. The drill bits are made to run in reverse, that is counter clockwise, so when the extractor grabs the piece it is backed out. These work realy well.

You must be realy careful to drill in the middle of the broken bolt. Lubricate the drill bit with some PB Blaster. If there is any part of the piece of bolt sticking out of the front side, you could grab it with a vice grip and turn it out.

If this is not possible, then center punch it and drill into it, and use an extractor, such as the Sears, or an easy out. If you think you might mess it up, you could take it to a machine shop, or a good auto shop, and have them remove it.

I'm glad you got the crank sprocket off OK. Clean any and all corrosion off of the crank, woodruff keys, and the inside of the sprocket and pulley. Apply a thin coat of grease to the inside of the sprocket and pulley, and to the crank and woodruff key. This will keep them from corroding.

Do a search for SDPATT's explanation of how to properly install the front crank seal, and the CPS if applicable. Be very careful not to bend, distort, or otherwise damage the piece that rotates through the CPS.

Once the piece of bolt is removed from the pump body, repair any damaged threads. Hopefully this will not be necessary. When you assemble the pump use anti-sieze compound on the bolt threads, AND use a torque wrench.

The torque on the small bolts, like the one that is broken, is very light. Seven foot pounds comes to mind, but I do not remember for sure, so look it up. In fact I think I remember it being something like 80 inch pounds.

The larger bolts were something like 15 foot pounds. Again, look it up, as it is very easy to strip aluminum threads, and break small diameter bolts!

The most common causes of water pump failure are the seal and the bearing. The impeller can become encrusted with mineral deposits, like calcium, lime, etc., and fail to effectively move (pump) the coolant.

Mixing you anti-freeze with deionized, PH neutral water will eliminate, or at least minimize, this problem. It will also minimize the mineral build up in the rest of the system.

Thank you SHOZ123 for the PH neutral part of that. In fact it was SHOZ123 that pointed out the benefits of using a reverse drill bit for extracting broken bolts. thumbs_u

As an aside, the bits and pieces of expertise, knowledge, and experiences we share make us all better at working on these and any other cars.

DK, I am working out of town, and am without benefit of my references, or my personal e-mail. I will check the forum several times during the day for any questions you have.

Hang in there buddy, there are only one or two small obstacles left to overcome. Then we can break out the bottle of Tennessee mineral water (Old No. 7 in the black label). :D rangerj
 

DavidT

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Hang in there buddy, there are only one or two small obstacles left to overcome. Then we can break out the bottle of Tennessee mineral water
well, not really. Then, I can investigate a possible bad timing chain tensioner?!?
(If then ever comes! I am not able to dedicate a whole lot of time to this... doing it little by little... which is OK, except I'll probably forget how to put it all back together!)
I'll take the housing to work tomorrow. Our maintenance guy is a whiz!
1. Is this particular bolt the same size as the other 2 small bolts?
2. Does the O ring referred to in the bottom pic. have a groove it fits in?
Thanks!
BTW, do you really think this could be my leak? Wouldn't it have ran down the front side of the water pump? (from inbetween the 2 halves)

<small>[ February 17, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: dkautumna ]</small>
 

rangerj

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David,

Stop with the negative thoughts. You have gotten this far, right?

I think the small bolts are the same size and thread pitch. And yes, I do believe the broken bolt was the source or cause of the leak.

I want to stress one more time that it is very important to torque these bolts to the proper torque amount. It is also important to use anti-sieze compound on bolt threads when the metals are different, such as steel bolts in aluminum.

As for the direction that the fluid would take, it would flow backwards if the car was moving, and follow the path of least resistance when not being blown by moving air.

Look at the dark streaks on the back side of your pump housing. they flow from where the tube is inserted downward. Clean up the area where the tube is to be inserted so that it is smooth clean shiney metal. Do not gall, nick, scratch, or gauge this area where the "O" ring and tube are inserted.

The pump housind section that bolts against the block looks like it has a groove for the "O" ring in the picture. But this could be a "shadow" left by the old "O" ring. If I remember right it is a shallow groove. The block that it bolts up to is smooth, and should be clean AND SMOOTH.

Hang in there, you're doing fine. rangerj
 

DavidT

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Do I need to apply either RTV or lithium grease to each side of the O ring on the crossover tube... and in the female tube it slides in?... and in the inlet for the lower rad. hose?...
Or do I just clean these aluminum parts up real good?
Is Permatex Weatherstripping and Gasket adhesive good to use on both sides of the paper gasket?
 

shojuan

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dkautumna:
Do I need to apply either RTV or lithium grease to each side of the O ring on the crossover tube... and in the female tube it slides in?... and in the inlet for the lower rad. hose?...
Or do I just clean these aluminum parts up real good?
Is Permatex Weatherstripping and Gasket adhesive good to use on both sides of the paper gasket?
No, yes, no. Clean the aluminum parts up real good. Do not use RTV or lithium grease on the crossover o-ring. Use silicone grease (your spark plug dielectric grese is fine). Just use a thin layer of a good RTV on both sides of the paper gasket. If you're not sure if what you have is a good RTV then just spend $5 on a tube of permatex ultra-grey.
 

rangerj

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DK,

Did you get the piece of broken bolt removed from the pump body? Did you get to watch how it was done, and learn something?

"O" rings get a light coating of SILICONE GREASE, or dielectric grease (which is silicone grease).

Paper gaskets get a thin (THIN) coat of RTV. Do NOT use weatherstripping and gasket adheasive.
Hang in there, SHOJAUN and I, and some others, will get you through this.

You are doing fine. These little bumps, like the broken bolt, are normal. This stuff happens. The trick is to deal with it, and keep moving forward.

If you are not sure about something ask, just like you have been. You are going to get this done, period. SO, no more negative thoughts, OK. rangerj
 

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