VC gaskets done, now starter issues?!

[98SF19]

I did valve cover gaskets a week ago, had some suspected FPR issues which have since abated. Get in the car this morning and try to start. Motor turns over very sluggish, but no start. On subsequent attempts, I hear the starter making a rapid clicking/buzzing sound and motor is not turning over at all. So into the minivan I go to work.

What say the gurus?

 

[SHOZ123]

Dead battery.

 

[98SF19]

You mean "almost" dead? The starter is getting enough juice to make the horrible sound it's making (nothing sluggish about it!), but just not enough to turn the motor? FWIW, the battery sat in my garage for over 2 years while I waited for my DieHard Gold battery to croak. The DieHard was a great battery.

If I can get a jump start tonight, I'll be convinced (the electrical warning light on the dash hasn't come on recently - no alt. issues).

Thanks

 

[SHOZ123]

The rapid clicking buzzing is the relay dropping out then trying to fire again. As soon as a load is put on the circuit the voltage drops enough to cause the relay coil to not get enough current to pull in the contacts. It's a cycle, the contacts rapidly opening and closing is the clicking/buzzing.

When you get it restarted be sure to check your battery voltage when the engine is running with a heavy electrical load. It has to be over 13.5V to be reliable.

 

[98SF19]

Will do! With motor running, isn't voltage coming from the alternator? I thought the battery only exists to push the starter, at which point alt takes over. (IOW, please excuse my ignorance on the matter and clarify)

While we're on it, any suggestions on battery brands? I'm currently using an Interstate.

 

[SHOZ123]

yes that is right but you want to see if the alternator can push out enough voltage. <13.5V will leave you stranded sooner or later. 14.4V is the new spec.

I thought the alternator goes out so frequently on the V8 is because of it's closeness to the exhaust manifold. I had a piece of the jiffy pop type insulation curved around the back of it to protect from the radiant heat. Used some wire ties to secure it in place.

 

[98SF19]

low volts on batt. & alt.

After jumping the car after work yesterday, I went to the mechanic to have him check voltages. With car running: about 13V. With car off: a bit higher, maybe 13.2V

It's very hot this time of year, and it doesn't help that I still have a ton of oil on both sides of motor from not changing VC gaskets earlier. So I suspect that the rear exhaust manifold is getting quite hot, even during normal driving. When you say the alt. "goes out so frequently" are you saying it DIES (needs to be replaced) frequently, or just doesn't push the correct voltage during high heat? Should I hold off on buying a new alt. and instead scrub the oil off the rear exaust manilfold, maybe even put up a heat shield similar to what you show? Very clean motor by the way - when was that taken? I think with online discounts, I can get battery and alt. for around $200 or less.
:woo-hoo:

 

[SHOZ123]

If you had higher voltage when the car was off then running the alternator is definitely bad. I have never seen a 12V battery put out 13.2 v when the car is not running. The only way this could be if the acid concentration is very high. This means the battery has been overheated and is probably no good either.

 

[SHOZ123]

After jumping the car after work yesterday, I went to the mechanic to have him check voltages. With car running: about 13V. With car off: a bit higher, maybe 13.2V

It's very hot this time of year, and it doesn't help that I still have a ton of oil on both sides of motor from not changing VC gaskets earlier. So I suspect that the rear exhaust manifold is getting quite hot, even during normal driving. When you say the alt. "goes out so frequently" are you saying it DIES (needs to be replaced) frequently, or just doesn't push the correct voltage during high heat? Should I hold off on buying a new alt. and instead scrub the oil off the rear exaust manilfold, maybe even put up a heat shield similar to what you show? Very clean motor by the way - when was that taken? I think with online discounts, I can get battery and alt. for around $200 or less.
:woo-hoo:

The alternator will slowly put out less voltage as it ages. The oil on the back has nothing to do with it.

That pic is a motor with a new block ready to go in.

Again if the alternator is not putting out at least 13.5v when the engine is running AND with a large electrical load it is no good.

 

[98SF19]

Then a new battery AND alternator are on the horizon. But a little help . . .

Rockauto has OEM manufacturer TYC alternator - $123.15 after shipping
Advance Auto has a Woldwide for $172.49 (-$45 core = $127.49) and a Remy for $157.34 (-$12 core = $145.34) What's the best deal? I like the OEM especially since it's SHO-specific and not a Motorcraft but other than the prices, I know squat about these manufacturers.

But . . .
Advance has a deal now (-15% already factored into the above) but also comes with $50 off a future purchase of $100 or more. They're also selling a battery for . . . $100.99. This would allow me to essentially get the battery for $50 +/-, but only after paying a bit more for the alternator. I'd have to get the alternator first, then wait a few days to get the -$50 but I'll take a good alternator pushing a borderline battery for a few days over a good battery going south due to a bad alternator any day. As long as I can get a jump start every now and then, I'm good till the $50 coupon code arrives.

No, I am not an accountant.

 

[SHOZ123]

Get one that is the easiest to return when you need to.

 

[stephen newberg]

Get one that is the easiest to return when you need to.

Excellent advice, considering what I have read about so many having problems.

pax, smn

 

[1998v8sho]

I just recently had to replace my alternator and went with the Motorcraft one. It is a little expensive but I would rather have the OEM one instead of playing the "alternator game". It is a PIA to change one of these things out...especially if you have big hands, forearms, and arms.

Good luck!

 

[98SF19]

OEM alt. & subrame

Per rockauto.com, it seems that the OEM is TYC, but they do list a reman'd Motorcraft. I went with a Remy from Advance Auto. Have yet to install though. After checking v8sho, it looks like a PITA. Is there a how-to for loosening the subframe ("sagging" the right side only, not dropping). I.E. what to disconnect, loosen, etc. before supporting subframe with jack and letting down? I found:

http://v8sho.com/SHO/subframe.html

Is there a simpler way? Can I omit any steps? The valve cover gasket job was a bit of a stretch for me, but I managed it (with some on-line help from Nimz and others). Is the alternator/subframe job much worse than that?
Thanks

 

[SHOZ123]

TYC is an Asian OEM manufacturer. Motorcraft is the Ford OEM manufacturer. But most alternators you will get for the V8 SHO are for a Windstar. Make sure you use your OEM pulley on the new alternator if a different size. You want a larger diameter one.

 

[Liquid_force]

I've replaced the alt twice in mine. Didn't have to lower the sub frame either time, just release the PS tie rod from the knuckle and turn the wheel to the right.
It's snug, but it comes out.

The biggest hang ups for me are getting the top nut of the alt out and back in. Access is difficult.
And that mother effing serp belt...
I've read a long ratchet, or extension tool of some kind to make releasing tension easier is the key to the job.
Last time it had me right on the edge of sanity.
I did it from beneath also - I think it would have been much eaiser to remove the plastic inner fender and access the belt from where the wheel is vs from below.
I think that's how I did it the first time and I don't remember it being such a pain.

http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/AlternatorReplacement.htm

 

[1998v8sho]

I removed the top bolt from the top. I did take off part of the upper intake manifold and the surge tank. The upper bolt is a PIA but much easier from the top...just a few extra steps. They were worth it because I have big arms. I did have to drop my sub-frame to get it out with ease.

Good luck with yours. Just have some patience and remember to check every connection and bolt twice before you put everything back. All in all it took me about 2 1/2 hours to complete.

 

[98SF19]

top bolt and serp

I'll set aside Saturday to do this then. I have skinny arms, so I think I can get away with removing passenger side cowling, maybe not the intakes and surge tank. After replacing that front O2 sensor last year, I'm pretty confident in getting my arms down there to turn a wrench.

Looking forward to the serp. belt though. I've never taken it off. About how much torque does one need to put to the the tensioner bolt? Saw a dude on youtube use the closed end of a crescent wrench on the bolt, then he put a larger one over the open end of the same wrench for leverage. Easily loosened tension with one hand and used the other to slip off belt. This was NOT a SHO though, but a late 90's Explorer, so I'm sure it's apples to oranges . . .

Dumb question though: can the tensioner be loosed by turning either direction? Some clips I saw (all late 90's Fords) showed a CCKW turn, and others CKW.

 

[Liquid_force]

The top bolt is tricky. IF you're lucky enough to have smooth clean threads on the stud you can sometimes get your hand into position to loosen it with just your fingers after you break it loose with a wrench.
The first time I did it I ended up standing along side the passenger fender and leaning over the engine, reaching back with my left hand and I was able to get that nut off in a couple minutes.
More recently I had a lot more trouble. It wasn't turning as easy. I kept having to use the wrench. Probably took a half hour.

My tensioner is spring loaded. You dont' loosen a nut/bolt, you use a 3/8" ratchet inserted in a square hole. Leverage it to release the tension so you can slip the belt off. That's the easy part. it takes 5 sec. Takes some force too, 25, 30 lb maybe. No big deal once or twice, but the hard part is getting the belt to sit on all the pulleys, holding the ratchet in place to release the tension, and sliding the belt back into place. When you have to do it 20, 30, 50x trying to get the belt back on the pulleys it can make you want to punch things.

 

[98SF19]

I made a liar of myself. Got the battery today, and after the alternator tested OK last week, I thought I'd just go with the battery for now. Well the good Lord has other plans.

While out for a drive tonight, occasional WOT, go to make a turn - NO POWER STEERING. Man, this sucks. Battery light is on, so I check the serp. and it's been thrown and is crumpled up down near the subframe. Made it back home then yanked the front passenger wheel and the splash guard to get a look for any shards of belt, a few of which I found. Looked like about half of the cords on the flat side of the belt had been stripped out for a while. Picking up a new serp tomorrow, then going to try my hand at SuperHo's directions here. But I'm half way wondering if just replacing the serp might solve my problem, since I've had the battery light flash and a short loss of power steering once or twice in the past year. At least when I do replace the alt (new one sitting in garage), I'll be more familiar with the whole belt reroute process.

So what's the most likely reason that the belt got thrown in the first place? My guess would be the frayed strips got wrapped up and tangled and caught up in the pulleys. Also, can someone give me a part/model number for the belt? (Mr. Nimz, call on line 1 . . .)

Thanks!