Swaybar combo feed back

[RJ-92]

I was wondering what everyone runs for swaybars and how they like them. I am currently running a 24/26 combo with a quaife. I have noticed how the the bar sometimes upsets the ATB diff powering out of tight turns. I have a 22mm front bar I was considering but with the 26 rear bar, I have experienced the over-steer that sometimes comes with it. Will the smaller front bar increase the tendancy of these cars to over-steer (particulary snap over steer)? Ihave read here that the smaller to no front bar will give you the greatest traction with the quaife though. What are your experiences?

 

[yamahaSHO]

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=48745

http://www.panix.com/~awinbow/sho/suspension.html

 

[NJSHO]

go with the 22

 

[NJatx]

go with the 22 with a quaife. otherwise your front end will be too stiff and you will get slip from your inside tire. with the added flex it will minimize that. more important for road course driving daily driving is completely differnt but i would still go with the 22 in the front.

shane

 

[FAST4DR]

I have had the 20.6 bar on the front and a 26mm rear for a few years. I do not like the way the 20.6 feels on the front. It lets the car flop back and forth too much for me. Just yesterday I installed a 24mm front bar along with my 26mm rear. So I am going against what everyone is saying. I'll see how the quaife does with the heavier bar this weekend. I have taken the car out a few times and driven it very hard and my initial reaction is that I like the 24mm front bar much, much better. I did not experience any weird quaife issues. But the true test will be this weekend at the autocross. Lots of sharp turns at low speed with full throttle. So we'll see what happens and I'll let you know.....

Will

 

[jedhead]

I have 24/26 on my 1991 with a Quaife. I also have subframe connectors, SS Linears, Konis, strut bars. I hammer the car hard in 1st on a 270 degree uphill on ramp and my inside tire stays planted. I can feel the Quaife pull the front of the car tighter into the turn. Before the Quaife same suspension, wheels and tires at the same location, I would smoke the inside tire all the way thru first and second.

Bob

 

[FAST4DR]

Went to my local autocross this weekend. Ran Saturday and Sunday. The 24mm front bar is a keeper for me. The car leaned less, twisted less and was more tossable. The rear end would actually rotate around on the switchbacks easier than with the 20.6/26 combo. I had no problems with traction and no problems with quaife. The car pulled wherever I pointed it. Now I just have to increase my front camber more and I think this is the perfect combination for me. I can drive the car comfortably on the street and kickbutt at the autocross.

Here are a couple pictures. The first pic is a picture from a previous autocross showing the car with 20.6/26mm swaybars. The second and third pictures are from this weekend and the only change is the front 24mm swaybar.

Will

 

[FAST4DR]

Here is a small video of me at the autocross this weekend to give you an idea of how it looks turning, etc.

Right Mouse click and "Save Target as..."

SHOautocross.wmv video

Will

The high pitch squeel as I go around the left hand sweeper is I think my wheel bearing. Not sure and I can't see anything rubbing anything.

 

[SeanMc]

How about for an ATX? My stock setup is 22/19 (measured with calipers). I'm thinking 26 for the rear.

 

[Sh03d]

I have a 20.6/26 on my 95 ATX. Great for the street but I am thinking about going to the 22 up front once I can get my hands on one.

 

[JEM]

I'll stick with what I've always said: 20.6/26 for open-diff cars, 22/26 for Quaife cars. This is assuming commonly available springs (stock, Eibach, whatever.)

You want more front stiffness than that, you need stiffer springs. Particularly on an open-diff car, where side-to-side-coupled roll stiffness (e.g. 24mm or larger bar) just picks up the inside wheel and lets it spin.

The 24mm front bar is closer to tolerable on a Quaifed car, but still too understeery for my tastes.

 

[nc89sho]

on my 89 i am running the 20.6 up front with poly bushings and the 26 in the rear with poly bushing. i like it better than the stock 24/26 combo. lotts more grip in the turns oh, and i'm running a open diff.

on my 93 i'm running 23/26 and i like the balance of this settup alot with the more nose heavy auto.

I don't like using the sways to controll body roll completely. that's what stiffer springs are for. i think it's better used to balance the cornering loads.

 

[Toolman]

I'll stick with what I've always said: 20.6/26 for open-diff cars, 22/26 for Quaife cars. This is assuming commonly available springs (stock, Eibach, whatever.)

You want more front stiffness than that, you need stiffer springs. Particularly on an open-diff car, where side-to-side-coupled roll stiffness (e.g. 24mm or larger bar) just picks up the inside wheel and lets it spin.

The 24mm front bar is closer to tolerable on a Quaifed car, but still too understeery for my tastes.

I have the 24/26 combo, with the coilovers. Very nice for the turbo. No spin issues.

 

[Lance Cheney]

I don't like using the sways to controll body roll completely. that's what stiffer springs are for. i think it's better used to balance the cornering loads.

Many people put on larger sway bars to "get more grip", when sway bars decrease grip at that axle (barring significant grip increases from more consistent suspension geometry). Using the sway bars for tuning is the right thing to do. The sway bars unload the inside tire in order to add load to the outside tire, significantly reducing its friction coeffecient (much more than the increase coeffecient on the inside tire, which is now providing only a small amount of the total grip anyway). The ultimate is the 3-tire pegleg stance, where one tire is carrying the load of an entire axle. From load sheets I've seen published tires can easily lose 20% of their CF when the load goes up by 50% -- that's 20% of your grip that you are giving up.

Of course, if you can't put on stiffer springs to control roll stiffness then there is only so much you can do, but stiff springs are the best solution for maintaining the suspension geometry and optimizing the tire's contact patch. Running higher spring-rate coilovers with no front sway bar and a smaller (23mm) rear bar allows me to get much more even loading between (and across) the tires than I was previously able to do with stock or Intrax springs and a 22/26 combo.

I think a nice 'almost-daily-driver' combination would be a coilover-based setup (lighter weight, 2.5" ID springs) with sufficiently long 300-350lb front springs and 200-250lb rear springs. Progressive-rate springs are nice for ride control but I was never happy with the transient response of the Intrax springs I had; the stock ones seemed to be more predictable.

It's also amazing how few driving games model sway bars properly, but that's another topic...

-Lance

 

[jedhead]

Many people put on larger sway bars to "get more grip", when sway bars decrease grip at that axle (barring significant grip increases from more consistent suspension geometry). Using the sway bars for tuning is the right thing to do. The sway bars unload the inside tire in order to add load to the outside tire, significantly reducing its friction coeffecient (much more than the increase coeffecient on the inside tire, which is now providing only a small amount of the total grip anyway). The ultimate is the 3-tire pegleg stance, where one tire is carrying the load of an entire axle. From load sheets I've seen published tires can easily lose 20% of their CF when the load goes up by 50% -- that's 20% of your grip that you are giving up.

Of course, if you can't put on stiffer springs to control roll stiffness then there is only so much you can do, but stiff springs are the best solution for maintaining the suspension geometry and optimizing the tire's contact patch. Running higher spring-rate coilovers with no front sway bar and a smaller (23mm) rear bar allows me to get much more even loading between (and across) the tires than I was previously able to do with stock or Intrax springs and a 22/26 combo.

I think a nice 'almost-daily-driver' combination would be a coilover-based setup (lighter weight, 2.5" ID springs) with sufficiently long 300-350lb front springs and 200-250lb rear springs. Progressive-rate springs are nice for ride control but I was never happy with the transient response of the Intrax springs I had; the stock ones seemed to be more predictable.

It's also amazing how few driving games model sway bars properly, but that's another topic...

-Lance

If using little or no sway bars is better for handling, then why would the Ninja Turtle SHO's use 68mm front and 83mm rear bars? When the sway bar is compressed on one side doesn't it put downward pressure on the other tire? My 1974 Jensen-Healey did not have sway bars from the factory. I purchased a set of sway bars for it, my cornering speeds increased greatly. The body roll decreased also. The only downside that I had with the sway bar equipped Jensen-Healey was in really roughly paved corners the live axle rear end got upset easier. The newest BMW has sway bars that are two piece and can be disconnected. It is my understanding that the sway bar is disconnected while driving in a straight line for a better ride and connected while cornering. Does BMW have it wrong and the sway bars be disconnected for cornering?

Bob

 

[SeanMc]

Instead of tires, I'll just have 18" swaybars that double as wheels. How do you think my handling will be?

 

[yamahaSHO]

The high pitch squeel as I go around the left hand sweeper is I think my wheel bearing. Not sure and I can't see anything rubbing anything.

If your wheel bearing is going out, it is most likely your outer brake pad rubbing on your rotor when you turn. Chris' car was doing this and it is loud when you run HP-Plus pads.

 

[Hack]

If using little or no sway bars is better for handling, then why would the Ninja Turtle SHO's use 68mm front and 83mm rear bars? When the sway bar is compressed on one side doesn't it put downward pressure on the other tire? My 1974 Jensen-Healey did not have sway bars from the factory. I purchased a set of sway bars for it, my cornering speeds increased greatly. The body roll decreased also. The only downside that I had with the sway bar equipped Jensen-Healey was in really roughly paved corners the live axle rear end got upset easier. The newest BMW has sway bars that are two piece and can be disconnected. It is my understanding that the sway bar is disconnected while driving in a straight line for a better ride and connected while cornering. Does BMW have it wrong and the sway bars be disconnected for cornering?

Bob

I will agree with Lance on this one. I run no front bar and a small (21mm) rear bar in combination with coilovers. My springs are 500/350 f/r, and with this combination I have little body roll. The car feels pretty neutral, but I have a 23mm rear bar that I will try out at some point to add a touch more oversteer.

On the TMNT cars, I was told that the 68mm and 83mm bar measurements are circumference and not diameter. If this is the case, the approximate diameters are 21.5mm front and 26.5mm rear.

 

[shomesomesho]

'91 MTX with 24/26mm and Intrax, Koni's (soft in front, stiff in rear), and the beloved Quaife. Even with the rear tires inflated 3-5 lbs higher than the front tires, it still tends to understeer too much for my taste. I am looking to try a 22mm bar in the front if I can locate one. If not, I am strongly considering coilovers.

 

[FAST4DR]

If your wheel bearing is going out, it is most likely your outer brake pad rubbing on your rotor when you turn. Chris' car was doing this and it is loud when you run HP-Plus pads.

I figured it was something like that, but there is very little movement in the wheel when torqued on at the 12 and 6 oclock positions. Weird thing is that they are NEW bearings. Only been on the car for a few thousand miles. When I first installed them the passengers side had a little play. Not much but I could feel it when I torqued on the wheel while jacked up, whereas the drivers side, nothing, no movement at all.

That squeel is pretty metallicy sounding and very loud. Almost seems like it is metal on metal and not the pad touching. I wonder if it could be the bearings rubbing on the edge of the race? I will have to lightly apply the brakes while in a turn squeeling and see if the noise changes.

Will