Someone please inspect these welds

[99sho-time]

Alright so I made a thread a while back about starting noises. Ive since then changed the oil and put the proper motorcraft filter in no change in sound. 5w30 castrol magnatec

There is also a knocking sound that always goes away after a few secs. I took another video and this clattter literally sounds like valves are colliding. I dunno if that is it but the strange thing is about 10 or 15 mins into the drive the thing will be whisper quiet and smooth. I took another video that highlights the sound very well at the botum.

important to note it only does it under load like 1k+ rpm ish and sometimes when i start it acts very weird like surges like crazy then recovers

 

[rubydist]

I cannot tell from the photo about the welds - the closest one looks like it might have a crack through it? If so, the sprocket could still be moving.

The noise could be chain slap too - are the chains tight? or are the tensioners soft?

 

[99sho-time]

I'm gonna have to take it apart to inspect it. It's hard to tell if the welds penetrated enough for a good bond . I thinks it's important to note the shop who did SS speed shop in queens ny royally messed up on putting it back together oil leak was insane.

Im gonna check the tension of the chains.
Only thing is if the cams did slip or do slip a little would the sound from that go away when warm? Because like I ssaid the thing is butter smooth when its warmed up but that clatter takes a while to go away while a solid knocks takes a couple secs to go away.

also that starting issue sometimes it chuggs and start really weird and surges while 1/2 the time it starts nice.

I dont understand why the front ones looks so much better and are a brighter color.

 

[sperold]

On the V6 automatics, the chain tensioners are hydraulic, so chances are the V8s are the same.
It takes a while for the hydraulic pressure to build, so that might explain the start-up and warmed up sound difference.
I think someone on this forum sells a manual chain adjustment for the V6 automatic engine, so it shows you it is a common problem.

There is a lot of weld on the cams, I think they have not moved.

The chains in the picture are the ones that could be making the noise, so just see if they are snug or sloppy. I think if they are loose, the "wave" in the chain hits the valve cover, which makes an annoying sound.

 

[rubydist]

the welds in the second photo look fine to me.

 

[99sho-time]

Okay the other day I drained about a quart of brand new oil after running it only a few times.. And there was a decent amount of copper flakes one of the shavings was a pretty decent size all coiled up and rolled up piece.

This was pure copper it feels like the timing chain is dragging on something. I put marvels mystery oil in it it seem to quit this noise down a little bit.

I dont understand what is pure copper inside this engine?
And again the car warms up it makes no sound at all.

I was thinking maybe it was a sticky valve and the shim was wearing? what are shims made out of?

 

[rubydist]

not copper, they are very hard steel alloy.

 

[99sho-time]

why is there straight copper flakes in my oil? I'm pretty sure this is copper it doesn't make sense.

 

[rubydist]

The noise on the video is not rod knock. Since you say that it goes away once the engine is warm, it is almost certainly piston slap/rattle due to rings that are stuck. Once the pistons warm up, they expand enough to reduce the piston rattle to an undetectable amount.

I have had good luck using Motorcraft semi-synthetic oil to loosen up sticky rings. I would get some of that and change the oil to that and only that for the next year. There is a good chance that in 2-3 oil changes the rings will be loosened up enough to make that noise stop.

I don't know where the copper is coming from, but it could be from rod bearings if there is enough twist or angle on the rod when cold due to the stuck rings. I would worry about getting the rings loosened up first, because my understanding is that there are no head gaskets for these engines so you don't want to have to pull the heads to remove / clean pistons.

 

[99sho-time]

thank you for your answer. Yeah It's why i asked in the other thread what type of pistons they were. I was under the impression that hypereutectic piston expand less than regular cast of forged.

should I run injector cleaner in gas or oil like chevron with tecron?

 

[rubydist]

no need if you buy "good" gas from the brand names like Shell or Mobil - they put a decent amount of injector cleaner in the gas to avoid injector issues so you really don't need to add any.

 

[GEN 3 SHO FAN]

Hi,

I saw your photo and I think you must do something with the cam... The welder do a very good job but it seems he forgot one place... (I welded mine recently and I took many photos to do a good job.) Your motor will be a lot more safe if you weld the octogonal part to the cam because this part can move too as she was assembled with the same manner as the sprocket (simply pressed on the cam). IIRC, it's one of the Mr Leehmann or Doucette welding on this photo.



Another member welded his cams recently. Compare with your photos.
http://www.shoforum.com/index.php?threads/98-sho-cams-welded.131570/

You can also check if the part has moved in checking small scratches on the cam like this one (silver areas are not good) :


Your noise can be what older members said but if I understood correctly what I rode on posts about welding, you have a chance to have a cam slipping. The good thing, it's the front cam, the easiest to weld.

Just to help eliminating sources of noise, Gen 3 doesn't have hydrolic tensionner.

Maybe I mistaken, but I'm pretty sure. However, this does not prevent chain to gain loose with time.

Good luck and keep us informed,

 

[E1]

there are 3 hydraulic tensioners in your bottom photo.

One between the cams on each head and one more for the large timing chain. It is located above and to the left of the crank timing sprocket. It pushes on the silver colored part that looks like a bow for shooting arrows.

These tensioners get pumped up by oil pressure when the engine is running.

 

[GEN 3 SHO FAN]

Ok, thanks Eric, I never saw that these can move when I retreived my covers. Good to know. I have 2 questions for you by the way.

1) Is my theory is correct about a missing place in the welding of the front cam of 99sho-time (welding octogonal part on the cam) ?

2) Is the V6 have a chain or a strap ? I always thought that V6 had a strap...

Thanks,

 

[E1]

Correct about the missing weld on the octagonal nut.

V6 - I don't know these engines. I think it is a 'strap'. In the United States I believe they call that a timing belt.

 

[rubydist]

V6 SHO has a timing belt, and is a non-interference engine, so even if the belt breaks you do not crash valves. The V8 SHO is interference engine, so if the cam sprockets slip enough, the valves get bent.

 

[GEN 3 SHO FAN]

Thanks guys, I was not completely mistaken. One welding place is missing. Hope it didn't already damage something on his motor...

 

[99sho-time]

The noise on the video is not rod knock. Since you say that it goes away once the engine is warm, it is almost certainly piston slap/rattle due to rings that are stuck. Once the pistons warm up, they expand enough to reduce the piston rattle to an undetectable amount.

I have had good luck using Motorcraft semi-synthetic oil to loosen up sticky rings. I would get some of that and change the oil to that and only that for the next year. There is a good chance that in 2-3 oil changes the rings will be loosened up enough to make that noise stop.

I don't know where the copper is coming from, but it could be from rod bearings if there is enough twist or angle on the rod when cold due to the stuck rings. I would worry about getting the rings loosened up first, because my understanding is that there are no head gaskets for these engines so you don't want to have to pull the heads to remove / clean pistons.

Just had one more question on your response to the video. So you were saying you thought it was "stuck piston rings" and not the chain tensioners?

 

[rubydist]

I cannot hear it well enough on the video to be certain, but because you say it goes away when the engine is warm, I believe it will turn out to be stuck rings.

 

[99sho-time]

Sorry to beat the dead horse. But I am considering taking off the rear valve cover to inspect the welds chains and tensioners. The warm up rattle is just so annoying it's to the point where I think people can hear it outside of the car when I pass by.

One thing I forgot to mention that I had did was a while back someone had told me who has a v8sho told me to sea foam the intake. I had mentioned would the seafoam pool at the bottom off the plenum he said no.

a while ago I had pulled the plenum out there was sizeable pools of nasty sticky sludge at the bottom of the surge tank.

I feel that what i have done may have sludged up the piston rings?

But what is confusing me is when I first got the car it didn't make this sound to my knowledge I got the cams welded by some ******* in queens who didn't put the rear valve gasket in right at all it was squirting oil I had to drive it an hour home (i put oil in it)

So i started the repair myself I change the plugs gaped them with motorcraft platinum and i noticed the first time I started it made that sound the clattering and it never did that before.

Maybe something with the spark plugs? the rear coils are brand new motorcrafts.

I'm, at my wits end with this car I love it but I can handle only so much.