Shimming oil pump - redux - Gary answers.

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gmorrell

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At the risk of incurring moderator wrath, I'm going to re-open this subject because the original thread was closed as I was responding with an answer to gmail's question. It might not be the answer he's looking for, but it's the only answer I have, and as far as I'm concerned, it's the right answer, so here goes:

Regarding gmail's comment about the pressure relief setting.

No, he's right, the Ford/Yamaha SHO engine book says, and I quote:
The oil pump contains an integral pressure relief valve that relieves pressure at 4 +0.4 kg/ cm2 (56.88 ± 5.68 psi).
I quoted this text directly out of the copy I have saved on my archive drive. I also have a published/bound copy of this document that was given to me by Ford's service training manager many years ago.

OK, let's get something out of the way fairly early here.
After seeing the guy I'm supposed to ask also was a smartass in this thread shows me what's the point of asking him ?
Now, I've earned the right to be an ass occasionally, but the other 99% of the time, I'm damn helpful and forthcoming with information, and you can browse around this forum to see ample evidence of that. I grew up and got my engineering degrees in a time when information wasn't always so easy to come by: There wasn't any internet, or Google, or even any forums like this one. You wanted to learn something, you bought books, or you went to the library and borrowed them, or you sent requests (by snail mail) to borrow materials from other libraries, and you waited, sometimes weeks. Or you sought out people with more knowledge than yourself and asked questions - nicely, and maybe you bought them a beer... or three. (I also walked to school, every day in the snow, uphill both ways, and ate cold gravel for lunch.)

Information was sometimes hard to get, and it was often costly. Since buying my SHO in 1989, I've expended a good deal of energy, time and money learning lots of things, so you'll forgive me if occasionally I'm reluctant to part with my valuable information just because getting it for free is what you're used to.

Now, about shimming the oil pump, specifically the 3.0L pump. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. I have flat-ass defeated the pressure relief in the 3.0L pump and installed an expensive Peterson Fluid Systems adjustable remote oil pressure relief valve in my remote oil filter/cooling plumbing. It made almost no difference in hot, high RPM oil pressures.

The reason for this (I suspect...) is that the 3.0L pump is just flat out of capacity to flow more oil volume. I don't care what you do to the oil pressure relief valve, you can weld it solid shut, and you're not going to see much more oil pressure because the pump simply can't move any more oil volume.

The solution, I believe, is the 3.2L pump, which has a geroter that is 20% wider than the 3.0L pump. This pump will move a larger volume of oil over it's entire RPM operating range, so raising the pressure relief setting may actually accomplish what you're wanting to do. Good luck getting one, they're unobtanium. I'm certain that Ford/Yamaha didn't make this oil pump change lightly, because there really appeared to be no reason for it - the 3.2L engine has the same number and size bearings, the same clearances, etc. The only reason I can fathom for this larger capacity pump is that some engineer was paying attention and discovered that this engine, irrespective of its displacement, needed more pumped oil volume.
 
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SASHO91

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Allrighty... My apologies for the wrong info. I wasn't sure from the get go, but I was atleast 90% sure that's what the spec was.
Oh well, that wasn't the biggest issue in his thread though.
 

gmorrell

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Thank you.

Ok, since this is my thread, let's everybody play nice. Bring your experience, bring your data, but let's not have personal attacks or ******* contests. I don't want to have to scoop any cat crap out of my sandbox. ;)
 

NotSoSlowSHO

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Thanks for posting this up Gary.

Im curious though, why do so many SHO owners (myself included) see a 70-80PSI cold reading during revs?
 

Ishodu

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Thanks for posting this up Gary.

Im curious though, why do so many SHO owners (myself included) see a 70-80PSI cold reading during revs?

Although the RV is open it does not flow enough to allow the pressure to drop off much.
Just like the old SS super charger piping the hole for the blow off valve is small. I know someone who tried it with out the blow off valve there. Just open to air and had no issue making moderate boost.
 

gmorrell

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Im curious though, why do so many SHO owners (myself included) see a 70-80PSI cold reading during revs?
I think these over-pressure relief valves have very limited flow capacity, and it really shows up with cold, thick oil.

I've seen the same phenomenon with my SVT Contour - similar motor: High reving V6, crank-driven oil pump. The relief valve is set at something like 65psi, and with hot (200F) oil it pops off right at that pressure. But cold start - holeeshit - cold soak one of these Duratec engines overnight at 10F, crank it up and it's making 100psi at idle with 5W-30 synthetic, drive it away gently and it will peg a 150psi gauge.

Edit: Mod beat me to it, but you get the idea.
 
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Phoenix

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Well thats a great deal of infos , I didnt know the 3.2 was THAT much improvement over the 3.0 . Thanks :thankyou:
 

AREA 91

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Thanks for the info Gary.

This is why I used a 3.2 pump. There is a big difference when you look at both the 3.0 and 3.2 oil pumps, in terms of volume.

The 3.0 pump is easy to use for your typical 3.2 swap.
The 3.2 pump is definately worth it for a modded and tracked car.

My daily driven 3.2 has the 3.0 pump.
My nasty green car has the 3.2 pump.
 

sho_sc

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I kept my mouth shut (keyboard closed) on the "other" thread and I am gald I did so that some good info can find it's way out of the clutter.

Yes, hot oil pressure max on a 3.0L pump is ~60 psi. However, most folks, even when you race (unless you are Ernie) are not seeing enough consistent high RPMS to max out the 3.0L pump or a long peroid of time.

The solution for more "oiling" is better rod/main clearances. I've run a combo of 3.2L and 3.0L in every oil pump configuration shimed and not shimed. But currently, I am seeing the highest oil pressure "average" than I have ever seen. I running a unshimed 3.0L pump (200K miles) in a 3.0L engine.

I had my machinist to ground match the crank to the bearings using the tighter clearance specs. Each crank lope was ground to spec against the bearings. Running 5w40, hot idle (which granted my "hot" is 20F lower) at 1050 RPM, I get ~22 psi of oil pressure. and the normal 8-10 psi rise per 1000 RPM.

Just installing a new set of bearings don't have the same effect.
 

SuperchargedSHOguy

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Wow, so many good posts without being rude...funny how that happens. ;)
I've ran only 3.2 pumps in the engines I have put together and noticed a difference in pumps when I first had a 3.0 and 3.2 apart to tinker with.

I have had 2 spun bearing 3.2s to pull pumps from, that is your best bet for finding a used one.
 

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