She wheelies!!!!

[Off Road SHO]

I disagree. Even limp-in mode can be programmed out. They can change everything that the PCM controls, everything. You guys need to chill on this tweecer thing. You do know that they've been doing tuning long before the tweecer came out, don't you. They've been tuning Cobras, lightnings, and just about every high-end muscle car that shows up at Barret Jackson. I think they can handle the SHO motor.

I've already made my decision and am sticking to it. If they fail to tune it properly, then we'll see about going the home grown route.

BTW, they can also change an ATX D4U1 to act like, exactly like, an X2J. So re-wiring would be futile.

Tom

 

[AutoSHO]

I know what they can and cannot program. I know all the variables the EEC itself can take into account, how they calculate timing, load, etc.

Due to the ways the ATX computers calculate timing, it would take an inordinate amount of work to program out the handicap posed by the missing ATX. Thats why I suggest running an MTX computer - It won't be missing anything except a VSS signal, which is not necessary for proper operation.

The ATX computer can be programmed to run similarly to the X2J, but not exactly the same. The X2J and D4U1 require different sensor inputs and calculate load and timing advance differently.

I'm curious to see what they do to make it run. I'd love to see what variables they change and what they turn off in order to keep it running properly and not detonating.

 

[Sho-Driver]

I'll leave you alone about the TwEECer. What I will add to the comment where they have been tuning before the TwEECer came out.... Arizona Speed and Marine, SHO Shop, and a few other I know of, have been 'tuning' before the TwEECer and have done lots of tuning on various cars. I am yet to be impressed by any of them.

Where is Adam at?

 

[lightningtroy]

Hello, My name is Troy. I have never posted any comments on the SHO forum before. I have read many posts and learned some interesting facts and find the site a good source for information on both things that do and do not work. But i have a major problem with the posts in reguards to this particular subject. Rob, Dean, and I have been freinds for a long time. Together we have over 60 years of performance knowledge both good and bad. we often resolve difficult issues that many others could not. Now would you like someone tunning you're car with with the NEWEST chipburning technology avaliable on a dyno with datalogging equipment ($200,000) worth? the phone calls are to get the information required to make it RIGHT not just good enough. most shops will not take the time to do the research rob is doing, rob wont let it out the door untill it is a 100% How much effort/time do you really think goes into youre $300-500 chip? There is not ANYONE who will work harder than rob to make a car as bad(fast and reliable) as it can be. I invite ANYONE to BRING TWO IDENTICAL SHO'S with any type of modifications---na, supercharged, turbocharged, nitroused we will put robs chip in one and you can use any type of tuning devices you would like accept for(F.A.S.T.,EPEC,AEM,MOTEC, Acell DFI) you WILL LOOSE. I could rant on and on about the Thousands of cars rob, dean and i have worked on, many have been in magazines. My hats off to all of you who have found a way to make you're cars better, but please lay off the smack talk about someone you do not know, you just might learn something new.

 

[Sho-Driver]

I invite ANYONE to BRING TWO IDENTICAL SHO'S with any type of modifications---na, supercharged, turbocharged, nitroused we will put robs chip in one and you can use any type of tuning devices you would like accept for(F.A.S.T.,EPEC,AEM,MOTEC, Acell DFI) you WILL LOOSE.

That is an extremely bold statement. I know how to tune my SC SHO. I can tune it for maximum power with the risk of blowing it up and I can tune it for safe power. You're not going to see any other increase out of my car from another person (not any other increase that I have not or cannot do myself). I do not need $200,000 worth of equipment to tune my car either. All I need is the availability to data log everything and be able to change everything as well and I have that. The longest process in tuning these cars is getting the high slope, low slope, breakpoint, etc. correct so that the Keep Alive Memory is not making any changes (IE: you hit the commanded A/F you have programmed in to the tables under load/rpm). After that and the MAF, the rest really is not hard at all. Since he is boosted you will have to take in to account things like timing, etc.

I am pleased you guys think as highly of yourselves as you do. As I learned in the weight lifting world, there is always someone bigger, faster, and stronger than you, so there is no need to talk your crew up like that.

I offered to tune the buggy myself and show Tom how to do it as well. I am extremely familiar with the SHO and would have had the car running well the very first day (Idle, PT, WOT). Of course, as the computer learns more and more, a few changes will need to be made, but he will be getting the real-time feedback he needs.

I do not doubt your abilities, but I have dealt with "professionals" trying to tune my car and my father's car. After so much money was spent (and the tune desired was not achieved), I broke down and purchased the ability to do it myself. My dad would like to do the same, but GM will not release the software to the Ram Jet motor. He has taken he car to be tuned at the only place that has the software, Arizona Speed and Marine (which also have cars featured in magazines ). He finally dumped his AZ Speed and Marine computer and got an OTS computer. He has the ability to see everything that the computer is doing to/for the motor, but no ability to change it. He refuses to take the car to anyone and I completely back him up.

In short, I *was* trying to avoid Tom from going through the hassles and money spent like I did. I would do the same for any friend I know. Out of our club here, we have 5 supercharged SHO's and a retired engineer from Ford owning one of them, which I am sure everyone hear know who I am talking about. Every last one of us is tuning ourselves and not having a problem doing so. Tom has had a ride in a SHO utilizing the completely stock long block making 445whp that is self tuned.

I am done arguing about this as this is not my vehicle, my money, nor my trust in anyone. I still completely stand behind my statements prior to this. I'd actually like to see you run through your process and steps of tuning the SHO's computer. If you could walk me through your steps of tuning the *SHO* computer, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[droptopltd]

Sho 41 Ford Coupe

This is my first write in. I've been reading about this buggy and it sound like it going to be great. I would like know what whp you come out with and what all was done, I'm putting a SC SHO motor into a 41 FORD club coupe. I need to know some stuff before I go into it. I want to sc it would like to get about 445 at the wheels like some people are talking about if anyone can help me out and let me know what I need that would be great.

 

[Sho-Driver]

This is my first write in. I've been reading about this buggy and it sound like it going to be great. I would like know what whp you come out with and what all was done, I'm putting a SC SHO motor into a 41 FORD club coupe. I need to know some stuff before I go into it. I want to sc it would like to get about 445 at the wheels like some people are talking about if anyone can help me out and let me know what I need that would be great.

You have a Private Message.

 

[Off Road SHO]

I offered to tune the buggy myself and show Tom how to do it as well.

And I really appreciated the offer, but you're up there and not easy to "import" and I have these friends here that are not only tuners but also buggy guys that understand what I wanted when I described my wants.

In short, I *was* trying to avoid Tom from going through the hassles and money spent like I did. I would do the same for any friend I know.

Also appreciated, and without a doubt, when you get back here, I will suck every last bit of knowledge and help from you that I can without infringing on our friendship.

Tom has had a ride in a SHO utilizing the completely stock long block making 445whp that is self tuned.

And it was quite impressive. Made my knees weak and my head spin. The head spinning could have been caused by Pat asking me to turn around and look at the tower, just as he entered a fast downhill sweeper at ThunderHill. Either way, I was happy to get the ride AND glad to be back under MY control on mother earth.

QUOTE]

Tom :wave:

 

[lightningtroy]

You missed the point sho driver. At no point did i say you were/are not capable of tuning the car, i just think you were condeming someone else's hard work before you see the end result. You of all people should appericiate new ideas and new ways of improving any type of car. Some sho ecm cal. codes are more popular than others, it took the manufacture of the chip writing software a while to provide the codes to be able to write to Tom's ecm. it realy does not make any diff. what ecm Tom uses as long the code info is avaliable. Nearly the entire program will be rewriten. Other items also had to be adressed-like finding out if the stock maf would work after the transfer function for the 42lb.(flowed at 40lb) was programmed.,others claimed it would work, it did not. Of course once the lightning maf was installed a new transfer function was also programmed. The car runs quite well now and the factory load table is around 130% but belt problems have prevented any further tuning.You may also find it interesting that any function of the ford ecm can be shut on and off as needed, like missfire counters, downstream o2s, secondary runner control, egr, evap and so on. even full control of open and closed loop, some of these only apply to obd2 cars but it shure is nice to not have ce light on when large cams have been installed or cats have been removed. Another nice feature is that a factory NGS scan tool (and many aftermarket)can be used to monitor eng functions just like you would on a stock(yuck) vehicle.

 

[Sho-Driver]

I understand your position and did not mean to talk down on you in anyway. I am going from personal experience. I do understand what can be turned of on the computer. I personally would want to run an MTX computer versus writing an entire program to basically trick the computer.

Yes, having the right transfer function for the MAF is what you need. Also, having the correct high and low slopes will be key as well (also adjusting the injector breakpoint so it uses high/low when needed).

As far as the belt... In conjunction with a GatorBack belt, I have been turned on to a pulley from http://www.reichardracing.com/ that will almost eliminate belt slippage.

What are you using to data log? What are you looking at?
In our cars, you won't have to worry about a CEL with cams nor removing the cats.

I'd like to see the end result and hopefully Tom will let me plug in my TwEECer to data lot so I can see exactly what you guys did ;-)

 

[AutoSHO]

Other items also had to be adressed-like finding out if the stock maf would work after the transfer function for the 42lb.(flowed at 40lb) was programmed.,others claimed it would work, it did not. Of course once the lightning maf was installed a new transfer function was also programmed. The car runs quite well now and the factory load table is around 130% but belt problems have prevented any further tuning.You may also find it interesting that any function of the ford ecm can be shut on and off as needed, like missfire counters, downstream o2s, secondary runner control, egr, evap and so on. even full control of open and closed loop, some of these only apply to obd2 cars but it shure is nice to not have ce light on when large cams have been installed or cats have been removed. Another nice feature is that a factory NGS scan tool (and many aftermarket)can be used to monitor eng functions just like you would on a stock(yuck) vehicle.

Injector size/slope doesn't have anything to do with MAF airflow sensing capability. I know the MAF was *******, but it was due to the additional airflow provided by the blower, not larger injectors.

Sounds like with the SCT tuning, you have access to the whole code for the computer - Which we also have with the TwEECer and SC-Tuner software that has been available for a while.

Out of curiousity, are you planning to rewrite the stabilized fuel tables to account for the extra load? The stock tables are only written up to 100% - beyond that it is merely extrapolation or guesswork by the computer.

I'm not saying any of this to discredit you, merely to point out that we do in fact have similar capabilities when it comes to tuning. I also know a lot of the ins and outs of the SHO programming specifically, out of necessity. The ATX SHO programming relies a LOT on load for spark advance calculation, as well as fuel control. The ATX computer also has some entertaining multipliers for fueling, especially at high load/WOT.

Out of curiousity, do you plan to ever let Tom's buggy go into closed loop? Will you turn off adaptive learning?

 

[Sho-Driver]

And I really appreciated the offer, but you're up there and not easy to "import" and I have these friends here that are not only tuners but also buggy guys that understand what I wanted when I described my wants.

It's not that hard, you'll catch on quick Tuning is tuning. All you want the motor to do is hit the commanded A/F's at load/RPM (in short).

Also appreciated, and without a doubt, when you get back here, I will suck every last bit of knowledge and help from you that I can without infringing on our friendship.

Pick my brain, I want you too! You also know my e-mail and phone number, I want to help you. I owe you so much, and I mean more than just work and parts! Sadly, I may not be down in March now. My dad and I are fighting again. Don't ask me about what, 'cause I'm not really sure.

And it was quite impressive. Made my knees weak and my head spin. The head spinning could have been caused by Pat asking me to turn around and look at the tower, just as he entered a fast downhill sweeper at ThunderHill. Either way, I was happy to get the ride AND glad to be back under MY control on mother earth.

I've been learning from Pat, so be prepared to have the same from me And then you'll take your turn

 

[lightningtroy]

Current plan is to use open loop somewhere around 50% load and up. We are using some of the information learned from stock supercharged lightning data to tune the sho with. stock lightning load table will reach up to 140% with additional boost 200% is considered max before other changes need to be made namely maf meter and injector size. adaptive learning will be left on. What is youre definition of injector "break point"? with the roots type supercharger we keep the timming constant/fixed once open loop is used. factory ford tables only vary timming about 1-3 deg. under wot. typical stock lightning/cobra timming is about 18deg.

 

[Shoaz]

I've been learning from Pat, so be prepared to have the same from me And then you'll take your turn

Between Pat and Josh and Gary there's really nobody else you need to talk to, IMHO.

There are a few other guys out there who are also stellar in the s/c SHO tuning heirarchy, but hanging with Pat and Gary and learning from those guys gives you a huge advantage.

Gary's busy building The Ultimate SVO so he's not as involved with SHO stuff nowadays.

Once the Pumpkin gets rolling and reasonably well shaken out I'll be interested in tweaking it up a bit if the class rules allow. You're on my list for brains to drain when it gets to that.

 

[Sho-Driver]

The injector break point is the divider at which the car will determine what fuel slope to use in regards to injector pulse width and KAMRF. In general, the high slope affects anything above 3 ms, low slope is below 1 ms, and the breakpoint adjusts where between 3 and 1 the transition between high and low slope occurs. You can set it where ever you want, depending on what the trims do. I.E., if the trims tell you to moive it higher, then you do so and vice versa.

If you were to set the the breakpoint at 2 ms, at 2ms, the EEC would use half of the low and half of the high slope.at 1 ms or so, it would be using the low slope and at 3ms or higher, it would be using the high slope completely.

Just a touch on how bad the tune was with the stock EEC.

 

[Sho-Driver]

Between Pat and Josh and Gary there's really nobody else you need to talk to, IMHO.

There are a few other guys out there who are also stellar in the s/c SHO tuning heirarchy, but hanging with Pat and Gary and learning from those guys gives you a huge advantage.

Gary's busy building The Ultimate SVO so he's not as involved with SHO stuff nowadays.

Once the Pumpkin gets rolling and reasonably well shaken out I'll be interested in tweaking it up a bit if the class rules allow. You're on my list for brains to drain when it gets to that.

Eric, I hope that you do call on me to help you tune your car I am always looking for a reason to go down to AZ. Plus, I love helping out friends when I can Don't forget, AutoSHO knows his stuff too.

 

[Off Road SHO]

I'm heading over to the shop today to see how they're doing. I'll keep you informed.

Someday I might get into that tuning with the tweecer or SC tuner.

Tom

 

[Off Road SHO]

!!Curses Curses!!

I've got to modify my mounting bracket. I got the supercharger mounted an eentsy teentsy bit crooked. I thought that the belt would absorb the discrepancy, but NOOOOO, it walks it right off and shreds it.

Wouldn't you know it, the ONLY thing I did and was so proud of, turned out to be the biggest problem. Oh well. I'll make it better on the next run.

Tom

 

[MI-SHOFEAR]

I for one would like to see the pictures of the wheelies.

JEff

 

[Off Road SHO]

I for one would like to see the pictures of the wheelies.

JEff

First, turn your speakers down.

www.fiberspec.com/DooleyMotorSports

Select "movies"

select any movie with the word wheelie in it. All of these were done normally aspirated but with the help of a quick double clutch and an aggressive angle of attack.

Tom