secondaries stuck open

[Marccus]

.... Incidentally, I don't think this code is an "A/C code" as much as a transmission code. What year is your car ....

'89 MTX w/ about 445K.

I am trouble shooting vacuum system today.

Nick Chrimes (a SHO expert mechanic in San Jose and a really great guy who is VERY helpful and VERY generous with his time) whom I've taken my car to for some work, also gave me suggestions right along the guidelines you've stated for troubleshooting.

Thanks. Will report back ASAP.

 

[jonheese]

'89 MTX w/ about 445K.

Aha, okay, the 67 code is actually different for '89s than for '90-'91s.
Ref: http://wiki.wikisho.com/wiki/Two-digit_EEC_codes

I am trouble shooting vacuum system today.

Nick Chrimes (a SHO expert mechanic in San Jose and a really great guy who is VERY helpful and VERY generous with his time) whom I've taken my car to for some work, also gave me suggestions right along the guidelines you've stated for troubleshooting.

Thanks. Will report back ASAP.

Well, I'm flattered to be in the company of Nick; he is indeed a great (and brilliant) guy and a wonderful resource to the community. Good luck with it!

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Marccus]

Rodded out the ****** and secondaries work fine. They close when the engine is started and open up when I goose the throttle. Don't know at what rpm since I would need to sit in the drivers seat while someone opens up the throttle. Now it's like .... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! Off and running.

Idle still floats between 1050 and 1150 or so, so I might still have a slight vacuum leak.

I can't believe I've been running without secondaries for this long when all I had to do was check the ONE place, the FIRST place, I should have checked instead of checking EVERYTHING else. I had convinced myself that since I disassembled the intake manifold and had completely cleaned and painted it that there could not possibly be anything plugged. I wish I could turn my foot around and kick myself in the butt :asskick:

I am an idiot, *****, putz, zero, ninkanpoop, mamaluke, knucklehead, retard, the big "L", zipperhead, airhead, .... and SO embarassed. Don't tell anyone OK?

 

[jonheese]

Rodded out the ****** and secondaries work fine. They close when the engine is started and open up when I goose the throttle. Don't know at what rpm since I would need to sit in the drivers seat while someone opens up the throttle. Now it's like .... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! Off and running.

If they open when you goose it, you're good. The only way the opening RPM could change is with a programming change, since the "open"/"close" signals are sent directly from the ECU to the actuator valve.

Idle still floats between 1050 and 1150 or so, so I might still have a slight vacuum leak.

Sounds like it to me.

I can't believe I've been running without secondaries for this long when all I had to do was check the ONE place, the FIRST place, I should have checked instead of checking EVERYTHING else. I had convinced myself that since I disassembled the intake manifold and had completely cleaned and painted it that there could not possibly be anything plugged. I wish I could turn my foot around and kick myself in the butt :asskick:

I am an idiot, *****, putz, zero, ninkanpoop, mamaluke, knucklehead, retard, the big "L", zipperhead, airhead, .... and SO embarassed. Don't tell anyone OK?

Don't worry, I won't tell anyone, I'll let you do that... Okay, done.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Marccus]

If you don't mind me asking, where have you been?!!!

Man, you know this car, and probably the general principles of all aspects of most cars (or could figure them out pretty easily), like the back of your hand.

I am humbled and have quite a bit of admiration.

With only 75 posts, I assume you are a new owner.

Well anyway, it's the forum's gain and nobody's loss.

 

[jonheese]

If you don't mind me asking, where have you been?!!!

Man, you know this car, and probably the general principles of all aspects of most cars (or could figure them out pretty easily), like the back of your hand.

I am humbled and have quite a bit of admiration.

With only 75 posts, I assume you are a new owner.

Well anyway, it's the forum's gain and nobody's loss.

I've been in the SHO community since 2002, but I was never really big on the web-based forum format. From 2002, I was on the SHOtimes e-mail list until a few years ago, when we moved over to the V6SHO Yahoo group, and I've been a member of the V8SHO e-mail list since 2004.

I've been a member of SHOForum for most of that time, but never really posted (or read) much until this year.

I started the FordCDs.com website a number of years ago, which provided free Ford Service Manual CD in downloadable format (all contributed by members of the community-- I just hosted the website), but that came down a couple years ago when I got a letter from Ford's lawyers.

Then I started the WikiSHO website (http://www.wikisho.com) a couple of years ago, and I haven't had much success in getting the community to "build it up", but it has all of the old SHOTimes FAQ info there, in an editable format, to keep it up to date, make corrections, etc.

So yeah, I've picked up a lot of info over the last 7 years or so, and I've owned a few different SHOs over that time. I'm like a sponge when it comes to this stuff, and I have a knack for critical thinking that comes in handy when troubleshooting.

Thank you for the kind words. I enjoy helping out whenever I can.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Devin]

Cool! Glad you got it working!

This should be nicknamed: "The Big Thread of Getting your Secondaries Working"

Idle still floats between 1050 and 1150 or so, so I might still have a slight vacuum leak.

I had that problem when my IAC was turned around.

 

[Marccus]

Found the vacuum leak.

The vacuum hose to the climate control module was disconnected.

Now the tach stays steady at 1020 or so rpm. Still high.

But the cold start problem I've been having is still there.

It takes two or three times to start the engine.

It just cranks for awhile; then when started I have to goose the throttle or it will stall.

Even when goosing the throttle to keep it going, it is a very rough idle.

This used to only happen on a cold start - if I left the engine off for more than 4 or so hours and overnight.

Now it seems to be happening after only two hours.

1.Turn the key on; cranks
2. repeat (1)two more times
3. Turns over on #3;
4. Engine stays on only if I goose the throttle and runs very rough
5. Have to wait 5 minutes or so before engaging gear and driving off otherwise it will stall or I can "catch it" if I goose the throttle.

NO CODES

Installed as soon as 1 month ago and up to a year ago:
New: plugs, wires, timing belt, CKP, CPS, MAF Sensor

 

[jonheese]

Found the vacuum leak.

The vacuum hose to the climate control module was disconnected.

Now the tach stays steady at 1020 or so rpm. Still high.

Sounds like you've found a vacuum leak... There may still be more...

But the cold start problem I've been having is still there.

It takes two or three times to start the engine.

It just cranks for awhile; then when started I have to goose the throttle or it will stall.

Even when goosing the throttle to keep it going, it is a very rough idle.

This used to only happen on a cold start - if I left the engine off for more than 4 or so hours and overnight.

Now it seems to be happening after only two hours.

1.Turn the key on; cranks
2. repeat (1)two more times
3. Turns over on #3;
4. Engine stays on only if I goose the throttle and runs very rough
5. Have to wait 5 minutes or so before engaging gear and driving off otherwise it will stall or I can "catch it" if I goose the throttle.

NO CODES

Installed as soon as 1 month ago and up to a year ago:
New: plugs, wires, timing belt, CKP, CPS, MAF Sensor

Hmmm...

Have you checked the fuel pressure when this happens? Try this: Get in the car, cold, and crank it for a couple seconds, then take a screwdriver wrapped in a rag (or a fuel pressure gauge, if you're lucky enough to have one around), and check for fuel pressure at the Schrader valve on the fuel rail. As long as you can do this within a couple minutes of the prime/crank operation, you should get a healthy amount of fuel spraying out into the rag (obviously, you'll want to be careful doing this).

Along the same lines, another way of checking for a potential fuel problem is to "prime" the fuel pump 2-3 times before cranking, and see if that changes the "hard start" behavior.

You may already know his, but when you turn the key to the "Run" position, before cranking it, the fuel pump runs for a second or so (you can hear it hum), and this re-pressurizes the fuel line from the tank to the rail.

If your fuel pump check valve (which is designed to allow fuel to flow only in the proper direction) is failing, it can allow the fuel to drain back into the tank, emptying out the fuel line, and that means you need to run the pump extra to fill it back up and get a good steady flow of fuel to the engine.

However, this issue is normally associated with hard starts, but not rough running after starts. When I had the check valve fail on my former '95 ATX, I could prime it 2-3 times before starting and it would start right up and run 100% normally. Your symptoms indicate that you've at least got something else going on.

That said, it is possible that the check valve (which is integral to the pump itself) is failing and the pump itself is failing in such a way that it's unable to sufficiently feed the engine enough fuel to run normally... Although the more I think about this possibility (and without setting a code), the more I think it's a stretch.

Still, a fuel delivery issue of some sort is my first guess here (especially since the "sitting" interval tolerance is decreasing as time progresses), second is something sensor related, possibly TPS (since it's not on your list of recently replaced).

The fact that it's giving you no codes is perplexing... :braincramp:

One more thing: If you have still got a vacuum leak, that may also be causing/affecting the rough running symptom. You might try running a stream of unlit propane around the engine (focusing on areas where you know vacuum is present) while it's idling, listening for an increase in the RPMs. That may help you find you find any additional vacuum leaks.

Good luck!

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Marccus]

In first trying to solve this problem, I installed a new fuel pump, fuel filter, and Ford NOS fuel injectors.

Checked fuel pressure with KOEO read 38 psi at the Schrader valve that fell at the rate of 1.5 psi/min.

The following is interesting.

1. Try to start engine, crank for few seconds, turn engine off.
2. Do #1 two more times
3. On fourth time engine starts w/o that long cranking (about 1 - 2 seconds) and rpm hang around 950 or so. Engine does not run rough.

If I continue to crank on the first, second cycle, or third cycle and wait for it to turn over, then when it does turn over it runs very rough and will stall.

Now when it idles steady it is about 950.

But as the engine warms and I drive around it settles about 1050 rpm. And it steadily sits there after finding all the vacuum leaks.

Runs fine all day.

NOTE:

This cold start problem seemed to start when first heard a rattling sound under the car, which I discovered to be a blown cat.

Replaced the cat but cold start problem persisted.

Nick Chrimes stated at one time that there is a possibility that pieces of the catalyst were sucked BACK towards the cylinders and if stuck there would cause high backpressure on start-up. He had asked me if I checked the bad cat to see if catalyst had broken free, but unfortunately I hadn't.

A mechanic suggested to me to check compression and leak down rate.

Is this plausible: on cold start, if compression is a problem, engine needs to crank before compression can build so engine ignites properly. After things have warmed up and loss of compression is less of an issue, then engine is OK.

So perhaps next procedure is to check compression and leak down.

I will try the propane check.

Sorry for choppy writing - can only check forum only so often so I am hurrying my responses.

Thanks for your input and suggestions. I'll keep at it.

Regarding codes, yesterday, CEL flash for a few seconds then went off on two different drives.

Ran codes and got #66 - bad MAF.

But I just installed a new MAF a week prior!

Then I unplugged the MAF connector and ran the codes again, and still got #66.

Then I disconnected and reconnected all the sensors throughout the engine and ran codes and #66 disappeared (#67 remained and has always been there!).

So the engine is haunted or there is a poltergeist in there!

Today so far there is no CEL showing ..... yet.

 

[frosho]

Have you cleaned the MAF? New ones can be dirty from the manufacturing process.

Is there any smoke on start up?

 

[jonheese]

It sounds like you're on the right track.

Given the fact that you've changed the pump, filter and injectors, I retract my statement that it's likely a fuel delivery problem.

Nick's suggestion sounds plausible.

A compression test and a leakdown test are great ideas.

Do you run a K&N air filter? If so, could it be oiling the MAF sensor?

Try cleaning the MAF sensor? That code could also be a bad wire or connector on the MAF, though I'm not sure exactly who you could definitively check that...

Good luck!

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Marccus]

Upon cold startup, exhaust has a "rich" odor to it.

I use a K&N, but I've never had problems with it oiling anything.

I'll clean the MAF sensor to make sure there is no oil on it.

Today I tried this:

1. Removed PCM and installed a PCM that I purchased from someone on the SHOforum.

2. Ran codes, and got #81 and found out that secondaries did not close!

3. But discovered that the warranty sealing flap had a 9D15 number on it versus 9D14 on the bar code sticker. The PCM I removed had numbers that matched. So I'm not quite sure the PCM I tried was "good".

4. Anyway, I put back the PCM that I had been using and got code #67 only.

I'm thinking the code #66 was bogus and I bought a new MAF for nothing. Because ....

When I actually unplugged the connector for the MAF, the engine went bonkers.

The engine acted exactly the same when I received code #66 and when #66 did not show up.

If there really were a code #66 when the connector was attached, then the engine should have behaved differently.

Also ..........

The engine stalls if I am idling the engine. There is no warning (chugging, surging, different sound) that it is about to stall. It is running fine and then .... OFF. This has happened a few times when I am idling at a light.

But it mostly happens when I leave the engine idling and am moving things in and out of the car, or sitting inside reading something. Usually happens after idling for about 5 - 10 minutes. All gauges read normal.

If I start the engine again, it then may stall again after 5 minutes or so. Sometimes it won't.

HOW DO I GET RID OF THIS CODE #67?

The Ford Code Reader paper I have ("For Ford, Lincoln, Mercury Domestic Vehicles from 1981 to 1995", copyright Innova 1998) states that the KOER test will not run until Code 11 is obtained for the KOEO test).

Thanks

This is a pain in the butt, because I may have to drive cross country from San Francisco to Boston and I just don't feel comfortable doing that until I solve this problem.
:banghd::banghd::banghd::banghd:

 

[jonheese]

Upon cold startup, exhaust has a "rich" odor to it.

The ECU errs on the side of caution (which is rich) when it's not sure exactly how much fuel to inject due to a failed MAF sensor.

I use a K&N, but I've never had problems with it oiling anything.

I'll clean the MAF sensor to make sure there is no oil on it.

That's definitely a good idea. Maybe even try putting a paper filter back in, just to eliminate the possibility of the K&N oiling the MAF element again. Honestly, I think you have to oil the K&N pretty heavily (i.e. not really know what you're doing) before it will significantly foul your MAF element, and you seem like you're more knowledgeable than that.

Today I tried this:

1. Removed PCM and installed a PCM that I purchased from someone on the SHOforum.

2. Ran codes, and got #81 and found out that secondaries did not close!

3. But discovered that the warranty sealing flap had a 9D15 number on it versus 9D14 on the bar code sticker. The PCM I removed had numbers that matched. So I'm not quite sure the PCM I tried was "good".

4. Anyway, I put back the PCM that I had been using and got code #67 only.

Remember, the 66 is a memory (or continuous) code only, not a KOEO/KOER code, meaning that the EEC self-test will never trigger a 66, only driving the car (or at the very least, starting it) will. So if you're seeing a 66 with one ECU and not another, that just means that the one's got a previously stored 66 code, and the other doesn't.

As far as the 67 goes, did you make sure that the A/C is off during the test? Sorry if that's a stupid question, I just didn't see you answer it before.

I'm thinking the code #66 was bogus and I bought a new MAF for nothing. Because ....

When I actually unplugged the connector for the MAF, the engine went bonkers.

The engine acted exactly the same when I received code #66 and when #66 did not show up.

If there really were a code #66 when the connector was attached, then the engine should have behaved differently.

Again, the 66 is a memory code, so it shows up whenever it decides to (i.e. whenever the ECU decides that it's had enough with an issue and it's time to complain). Its absence doesn't really indicate a negative response, just that it hasn't decided to pop up yet. I wouldn't rely too heavily on this in my troubleshooting logic if I were you.

Also ..........

The engine stalls if I am idling the engine. There is no warning (chugging, surging, different sound) that it is about to stall. It is running fine and then .... OFF. This has happened a few times when I am idling at a light.

But it mostly happens when I leave the engine idling and am moving things in and out of the car, or sitting inside reading something. Usually happens after idling for about 5 - 10 minutes. All gauges read normal.

If I start the engine again, it then may stall again after 5 minutes or so. Sometimes it won't.

Any codes from this?

HOW DO I GET RID OF THIS CODE #67?

The Ford Code Reader paper I have ("For Ford, Lincoln, Mercury Domestic Vehicles from 1981 to 1995", copyright Innova 1998) states that the KOER test will not run until Code 11 is obtained for the KOEO test).

Thanks

This is a pain in the butt, because I may have to drive cross country from San Francisco to Boston and I just don't feel comfortable doing that until I solve this problem.
:banghd::banghd::banghd::banghd:

Honestly, if you've already confirmed that the A/C is off during the test, I would try another ECU, but don't just stick it in there and run the self-test... Clear any continuous codes, run it for a couple days, then come back, and see what you get.

Good luck!

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[SHOtimer]

**i'm going to try and piggy back on this thread..

I've been keeping up with this and was thinking to myself I am so glad I haven't had a secondaries issue the entire 8 years I've had my SHO.... Then of course I was paying more attention to my secondaries and hadn't been hearing the distinct sound when they open. I began poking around and discovered that they are stuck open!

I have a spare intake, so I swapped the spare vacuum reservoir and valve, no change.

I can connect the main vacuum line going to the secondaries to the ****** on the back of the intake and they close immideatly (with the motor running of course). The hose going to the valve has that same force of vacuum coming from the vacuum resevoir, but their is no vacuum coming from the valve to close the secondaries.

This would make me think that naturally the valve was bad...but both are doing the same thing, which would also lead me to believe that it isn't the valve itself.

How do I check to make sure the PCM is sending the signal to open/close the secondaries?

Thanx guys,

Doug

 

[Marccus]

The ECU errs on the side of caution .....


Regards,
Jon Heese

Thanks for the VERY informative reply. I should pay you.

I'll follow up on your recommendations.

A/C is off.

Code #67:
I did a search on this code and ran across other Ford forums where others had it. I don't remember exactly, but someone stated attaching a wire to a switch then to a 12-volt source with a fuse, which will eliminate this code.

I'll dig up the link.

Is this correct;
To eliminate continuous codes, disconnect the jumper while running the KOEO test.

 

[Marccus]

**i'm going to try and piggy back on this thread..

I've been keeping up with this and was thinking to myself I am so glad I haven't had a secondaries issue the entire 8 years I've had my SHO.... Then of course I was paying more attention to my secondaries and hadn't been hearing the distinct sound when they open. I began poking around and discovered that they are stuck open!

I have a spare intake, so I swapped the spare vacuum reservoir and valve, no change.

I can connect the main vacuum line going to the secondaries to the ****** on the back of the intake and they close immideatly (with the motor running of course). The hose going to the valve has that same force of vacuum coming from the vacuum resevoir, but their is no vacuum coming from the valve to close the secondaries.

This would make me think that naturally the valve was bad...but both are doing the same thing, which would also lead me to believe that it isn't the valve itself.

How do I check to make sure the PCM is sending the signal to open/close the secondaries?

Thanx guys,

Doug

Well, one thing I did was to make sure there was continuity from the connector on the solenoid all the way back to the connecting pins on the harness that connects to the PCM. You will need a wiring diagram to know the correct pin numbers.

If you have continuity, then use a voltmeter with the connector attached to the solenoid. Pierce the hot wire with one probe of the voltmeter and ground the other probe. Below 4000 rpm, there should be a voltage to the solenoid. Have someone rev the engine above 4000 rpm, and the voltage should be zero. (Or it may be other way around, I forget, no voltage below 4000 rpm, and voltage above 4000 rpm). I believe it should be 6 volts.

Hope someone chimes in if I got it wrong.

 

[jonheese]

How do I check to make sure the PCM is sending the signal to open/close the secondaries?

I'd start by checking continuity between the connector that plugs into the IMRC valve and the ECU. I don't know offhand exactly how to tell you to do this, but I'd imagine that one wire is ground (probably black) and the other runs back to a pin (I don't know which one) on the ECU harness.

If you can get your hands on a wiring diagram for your year (or just follow the wire color back to the ECU connector), you should be able to find what pin on the ECU corresponds to the IMRC signal wire, and either backprobe it, or unplug the ECU and check for continuity from the ECU connector to the IMRC connector.

If you have continuity, check the ground.

If the ground is good, I can't think of any other reason why your butterflies wouldn't be closing when the engine starts. As far as I know, it would take an internal failure of the circuit inside the ECU to cause this not to happen, and I would imagine that that would set a code indicating such.

Either way, if you have good IMRC signal wire continuity and good ground continuity at the IMRC valve connector, my only suggestion would be to try a different ECU (with the same catch code, eg. X2J, L0S, etc.).

Good luck!

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[jonheese]

If you have continuity, then use a voltmeter with the connector attached to the solenoid. Pierce the hot wire with one probe of the voltmeter and ground the other probe. Below 4000 rpm, there should be a voltage to the solenoid. Have someone rev the engine above 4000 rpm, and the voltage should be zero. (Or it may be other way around, I forget, no voltage below 4000 rpm, and voltage above 4000 rpm). I believe it should be 6 volts.

Hope someone chimes in if I got it wrong.

That's actually a good question... stumped me. I don't know if the ECU energizes the valve closed or energizes it open.

I'd go out and test it myself, but one of my cars has no engine in it and one has no battery in it. If no one chimes in with a confirmed answer by tomorrow, I'll haul the battery out to my parts car and check.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[SHOtimer]

Thanx guys! I'll pull out my Helms and figure out what pin is what, and I guess I need to go buy a multi-meter to figure this out.

Doug