secondaries stuck open

[joesho_gb]

Then I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that this hole in the vacuum controller probably has something to do with it!
I have had the intake off 3 times, I can't believe I missed that! jeeze!

 

[jonheese]

Then I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that this hole in the vacuum controller probably has something to do with it!
I have had the intake off 3 times, I can't believe I missed that! jeeze!

Yup, the only holes you should have in that black plastic cylinder (technically a vacuum reservoir, not a controller) are in the two ******* on the end.

That hole would cause your secondaries not to close, and it would cause a vacuum leak (since vacuum is leaking out of that hole), which could very well be cause of the lean condition...

I'd say you found it.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[joesho_gb]

Ok, next big question. Where do I find one of the vacuum reservoirs for the SHO? I assume that it's not a "standard" part, seeing how (and I'm learning this one) nothing on the SHO is standard anything.

 

[jonheese]

Ok, next big question. Where do I find one of the vacuum reservoirs for the SHO? I assume that it's not a "standard" part, seeing how (and I'm learning this one) nothing on the SHO is standard anything.

If you can't (or don't want to) repair that one with some epoxy, I think used might be your only option.

You can post in the Wanted To Buy forum, or see if the SHO vendors listed here can help:
http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=45476

Or you can look through the Parts Cars and Parts Classified sections; I'm sure someone there has a good used one they can sell you.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[joesho_gb]

Well, I'm trying the epoxy plastic weld right now.
I did it right after I posted the picture, but couldn't/didn't wait until it totally dried, so I ran it down the road, and it was a heck of a lot better until the vacuum sucked the plastic weld into it lol.
So I'm doing it right this time, until I can get down to the junk yard to get one.
They have a 95 SHO ATX at Wally's Pick 'n Pull in Oshkosh, WI. So I'm probably going to go there tomorrow or Saturday and grab that.
Thanks Jon, that picture pointed me to the problem that I've been dealing with for the past month, since I bought it!

 

[Devin]

Ok, next big question. Where do I find one of the vacuum reservoirs for the SHO? I assume that it's not a "standard" part, seeing how (and I'm learning this one) nothing on the SHO is standard anything.

Nothing on the engine is shared with other cars, which is an important distinction.

Why don't you just wrap the canister in duct tape?

 

[jonheese]

Nothing on the engine is shared with other cars, which is an important distinction.

I wouldn't necessarily say nothing on the engine is shared. I can think of a handful of parts off the top of my head with cross-refs:

Throttle position sensor
Idle air control valve
Engine coolant temp sensor
Knock sensor? (not sure about that one)

Why don't you just wrap the canister in duct tape?

Yup, that would probably work in a pinch.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Devin]

:booboo:
I was being a bit over dramatic, however a list of items from an engine you can count on just your fingers things isn't a whole lot to phone home about. I was mostly pointing out that the platform itself shares a lot of commonalities with the Taurus, Sable, and a few with Lincolns and Thunderbirds. With that said, with this car the junkyard is your friend.

 

[Marccus]

I had that exact problem, and all it was was gunked up actuators.

I can't imagine what it'd be like to have closed butterflies all the time. What would be the point of the engine?

Well, I wish I could figure it out, but I can't. I completely cleaned and rebuilt the entire intake manifold and so there is no gunk anywhere.

I can move the secondaries easily with my finger and I can put vacuum on them with my mouth on the tubing to the secondaries and they will move, yet the system with the accumulator and electronics on my car will not actuate the secondaries.

I can feel vacuum with my finger on the line from the solenoid to the actuators but I don't know how strong this vacuum needs to be to move the secondaries.

The point of the engine for me anyways, is that I can still drive the car with an engine working even if the secondaries do not.

I wish things were better, but they're not.

 

[jonheese]

Well, I wish I could figure it out, but I can't. I completely cleaned and rebuilt the entire intake manifold and so there is no gunk anywhere.

I can move the secondaries easily with my finger and I can put vacuum on them with my mouth on the tubing to the secondaries and they will move, yet the system with the accumulator and electronics on my car will not actuate the secondaries.

I can feel vacuum with my finger on the line from the solenoid to the actuators but I don't know how strong this vacuum needs to be to move the secondaries.

The point of the engine for me anyways, is that I can still drive the car with an engine working even if the secondaries do not.

I wish things were better, but they're not.

Sounds like a slight vacuum leak-- just enough to weaken the vacuum enough to keep it from closing the butterflies.

My suggestion would be to try taking the reservoir and actuator off the intake and replace with just a straight piece of vacuum hose and a union, and see if the secondaries close when you start the car.

If so, put the actuator valve back in, but leave the reservoir out, and see if they still close, then rev it up to 4000 and see if they open. If so, you've got a bad vacuum reservoir. If not, you've got a bad actuator valve.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Devin]

Did you try the hand pump through the reservoir, to see how much vacuum you had to pull?

 

[Marccus]

Sounds like a slight vacuum leak-- just enough to weaken the vacuum enough to keep it from closing the butterflies.

My suggestion would be to try taking the reservoir and actuator off the intake and replace with just a straight piece of vacuum hose and a union, and see if the secondaries close when you start the car.

If so, put the actuator valve back in, but leave the reservoir out, and see if they still close, then rev it up to 4000 and see if they open. If so, you've got a bad vacuum reservoir. If not, you've got a bad actuator valve.

Regards,
Jon Heese

OK. I'll try that. Thank you.

 

[Marccus]

Did you try the hand pump through the reservoir, to see how much vacuum you had to pull?

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I have a Mity-Vac that I use to bleed my brakes.

Is this what you want me to use? How do I implement your procedure?

Thanks.

 

[Devin]

Well, the actual vacuum diagram escapes me, but you should be able to put a hose on the "out" to the actuators and pull a vacuum which would manipulate the actuator and close the secondaries' butterflies. That rules out collapsed or broken hoses.

You can then reattach the "out" line to the canister and pull a vacuum on the other end of the canister. If that closes the butterflies, you can guess that the reservoir (canister, whatever) works, and it's possibly the solenoid. But since you've used three of them that's probably not very accurate. You checked the wiring back to the PCM, so that could indicate the PCM, which would be wierd. But it's safe to say, there IS a reason, you just have to find it. Aren't cars fun?

When I get home tonight, I'll get my hand vac out and find out how much vacuum is necessary to close the secondary butterflies.

 

[Marccus]

I can create a vacuum when I put my mouth on the hose that goes to the plastic "T" that connects hoses to the actuators. When I "suck" in (no jokes, OK!) I can close the secondaries. Thus the actuators / secondaries system will work if vacuum is applied. I don't know why I am not pulling vacuum but I just found out this -

When I put my finger on the metal ****** on the surge reservoir, I hardly feel a vacuum. But I just noticed this now. When I was troubleshooting the system a while back, I felt vacuum here and on the outlet of the solenoid but it was weak.

Could this indicate that the ****** on the surge reservoir is plugged? I'll shoot some Berryman's into the ****** - with my face NOT directly in front of the ****** - and see what happens. Backflash is a beeaaatch with Berryman's!

Or perhaps I have a vacuum leak. I do have a slight roaming idle when idling at a light. The rpm may float as high as 1200 and then back down to 1000. It doesn't do this all the time.

I also have a bad cold start problem that I've been trying to solve for about 8 months. if I leave the car for more than four to six hours, it is hard to start the engine - long crank time, and rough stumbling idle. I need to keep the throttle open so it won't stall. After 10 minutes it runs like new and runs that way all day.

But I thought that was a separate issue.

 

[jonheese]

I can create a vacuum when I put my mouth on the hose that goes to the plastic "T" that connects hoses to the actuators. When I "suck" in (no jokes, OK!) I can close the secondaries. Thus the actuators / secondaries system will work if vacuum is applied. I don't know why I am not pulling vacuum but I just found out this -

When I put my finger on the metal ****** on the surge reservoir, I hardly feel a vacuum. But I just noticed this now. When I was troubleshooting the system a while back, I felt vacuum here and on the outlet of the solenoid but it was weak.

Could this indicate that the ****** on the surge reservoir is plugged? I'll shoot some Berryman's into the ****** - with my face NOT directly in front of the ****** - and see what happens. Backflash is a beeaaatch with Berryman's!

Or perhaps I have a vacuum leak. I do have a slight roaming idle when idling at a light. The rpm may float as high as 1200 and then back down to 1000. It doesn't do this all the time.

I also have a bad cold start problem that I've been trying to solve for about 8 months. if I leave the car for more than four to six hours, it is hard to start the engine - long crank time, and rough stumbling idle. I need to keep the throttle open so it won't stall. After 10 minutes it runs like new and runs that way all day.

But I thought that was a separate issue.

Yup, could be two symptoms of the same issue.

Sorry if this was already asked/answered above, but are you getting a CEL light? If so, any lean codes?

I'd say, based on your troubleshooting, you've either got a vacuum leak (or plug) somewhere upstream of the reservoir output ****** (could be the reservoir itself, the vacuum hose from the reservoir to the actuator valve, the actuator valve itself, or the vacuum hose from the surge tank to the actuator), or a bad actuator valve.

Or some other problem that I haven't thought of yet.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Marccus]

No CEL codes except for #67 - AC? I replaced the entire AC plumbing, but tried to install a new clutch while the compressor was in place. I couldn't get the snap ring completely in place. It ran fine for about a week then the clutch started smoking! I need to install a new compressor or remove the compressor and install the new clutch assembly, when I get the funds. What a job it was putting in all new AC lines. Now I know why they charge $1,500 to redo an AC system!

I have a vacuum gauge for the Mity-Vac and will try to attach this to the vacuum "t" assembly and read the vacuum. I remember reading that the vacuum should be about 14" to 16" Hg.

I sprayed water around all the gaskets and vacuum tubing to see if there was a leak, but I couldn't tell. I didn't hear any hissing sound or see the idle ramp up. I didn't notice any water being sucked in on the flat surfaces where the intake manifold mates with the head. It's easy to see if water is sucked in on a flat surface, but not so easy on the round gaskets as the water falls away quickly due to gravity.

I plan on getting a mechanics stethoscope to see if that helps.

I assembled my rebuilt intake manifold using the old gaskets that connect the secondaries. These eventually wear out and form leaks.

I have a set of round silicone gaskets for the intake manifold. But it's going to take a day to take apart the entire manifold and rebuild it with the silicone gaskets. I'll have to set aside a day for that.

Thanks.

 

[Marccus]

Ooops! I think that vacuum number was 14" to 16" of water!

 

[jonheese]

No CEL codes except for #67 - AC? I replaced the entire AC plumbing, but tried to install a new clutch while the compressor was in place. I couldn't get the snap ring completely in place. It ran fine for about a week then the clutch started smoking! I need to install a new compressor or remove the compressor and install the new clutch assembly, when I get the funds. What a job it was putting in all new AC lines. Now I know why they charge $1,500 to redo an AC system!

I have a vacuum gauge for the Mity-Vac and will try to attach this to the vacuum "t" assembly and read the vacuum. I remember reading that the vacuum should be about 14" to 16" Hg.

I sprayed water around all the gaskets and vacuum tubing to see if there was a leak, but I couldn't tell. I didn't hear any hissing sound or see the idle ramp up. I didn't notice any water being sucked in on the flat surfaces where the intake manifold mates with the head. It's easy to see if water is sucked in on a flat surface, but not so easy on the round gaskets as the water falls away quickly due to gravity.

I plan on getting a mechanics stethoscope to see if that helps.

I assembled my rebuilt intake manifold using the old gaskets that connect the secondaries. These eventually wear out and form leaks.

I have a set of round silicone gaskets for the intake manifold. But it's going to take a day to take apart the entire manifold and rebuild it with the silicone gaskets. I'll have to set aside a day for that.

Thanks.

Yeah, my reference says that a code 67 (in any manual transmission-equipped car) is "Clutch switch circuit failed", but specifies the troubleshooting procedure as "confirm that the air conditioner is turned off during the KOEO", and says if that doesn't fix it, to "refer this code to a qualified transmission specialist or the dealer".

Incidentally, I don't think this code is an "A/C code" as much as a transmission code. What year is your car?

I think your plan sounds good, keep us posted what you find.

I've had a leaky (practically disconnected) vacuum hose going from the surge tank to the IMRC actuator valve, and it did raise the idle speed 200-400 RPM (and the secondaries were stuck open), but I got no CEL codes, so I know it's possible to have a major leak there and still not be pulling in enough unmetered air to trigger a lean code.

So yeah, this one is a bit tricky, but you can eliminate each of the components (reservoir, hoses, valve) by taking them out of the loop one by one. Good luck.

Regards,
Jon Heese

 

[Devin]

11 in.Hg closes my secondary butterflies, just FYI. They actually "thunk" at 11, whereas at 10 they look almost fully seated.

This is pulled from the top vacuum hose off of the solenoid. I couldn't pull it through the solenoid with the car off.