Really broken subframe

[shown]

Hi all, I have an observation and a question if you don't mind. I tried searching for a few hours and still don't have a difinitive answer.

Observation - Michigan roads are very tough on cars: See Pics
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Question - On a genII, is the only subframe difference between an ATX Taurus SLO and a SHO MTX the transmission mount?

I bought a subframe from a SLO ATX and that's all I can see as different, but I haven't pulled mine yet so I can't see everything. If so, we could cut off my trans mount and put it on the ATX subframe.

Does anyone know the answer?

Thanks in advance.

Ron

 

[sperold]

There are a number of differences in the subframes you are speaking of. Many people have changed them, and there is a lot of info on this forum. The motor actually sits about half an inch difference, due to the location of the axle shafts. There are people who have used the 3rd generation subframe and reported improvements in the car.

 

[Racer X]

All but the front mount location are different, if I recall.

 

[shown]

Thanks again for the insights. I have had trouble finding enough on the forum. I have read a lot of posts on the subject, but I never saw anyone describe the differences. So is it just the rear motor mount and the trans mount? We could cut and weld them from the SHO subframe if that's all.

 

[93rev2sev]

If that ATX subframe is cherry, modify it. If it's not...come to Allen PARK and pick up the spare MTX subframe I've got hanging from the wall in the garage. I won't be using it for anything...

 

[TimboSHO]

Looks like you have a broken spring as well. I would take Tom's offer all the way! A road trip across the state > modifying an ATX frame to work

Do you go to Grand Valley?

 

[shown]

Hey thanks for the offer. I just might have to take you up on that. My replacement is pretty rusty too. Right now I'm concentrating in replacing all 4 struts, so I haven't gotten to the subframe yet. I just started tonight, but I'm waiting on a torch set from my buddie's garage.

We were thinking that we might cut off the offending end and weld it on my original subframe to get er done reasonibly quickly. But that subframe end is pretty thick where we were thinking of splicing it and I wonder if stick welding won't be as big a pain as replacing the whole thing. I just have to convince myself that I want to drive 5 or 6 hours on my day off for a subframe. Although the subframe sounds really good. Is it fairly clean? I might spend just as much on getting this one in.

BTW, I saw you resonse on the guy's post for bumper refinishing and you are more up to speed than I am these days. Great response.

Thanks again, I'll let you know if I think I should go that way.

 

[boat]

Yes it is, I have seen it. Do it!

I just have to convince myself that I want to drive 5 or 6 hours on my day off for a subframe. Although the subframe sounds really good. Is it fairly clean?

 

[rubydist]

you can modify the atx subframe by cutting off the trans mount and welding on the mtx trans mount (in the right place) and creating the needed notch in the subframe below the trans mount so the trans does not hit the subframe.

If you are going to all that work, by all means get a 96-97 slo subframe and modify that - you will have a much better end result after doing the Gen3 conversion. there are several threads detailing exactly what to change.

 

[kevinspann]

Yes, if you're going to modify it, do what he said. It's pretty much the same amount of work as trying to modify the gen 2 ATX subframe to work in an MTX, but you end up with a better suspension.

 

[shown]

Thanks for all the input guys. That does give me options. My buddy is quite good at fabricating and I bet he would like to try to fix this with what we have already. However, I'm really leaning toward getting the right part (from Tom). I respect all the guys who want to go to the gen3 subframe, but I'm not trying to do more than I have to to a 170k 17 year old daily driver that is just starting to show rust blisters.

And no, I don't go to GVSU, my college days are almost thirty years removed. And yeah, that's one of the broken springs - that one is even broken on the top and bottom! I took a chance and on my previous experience with Gabriel gas struts and went with their ready-mounts - complete built-up struts, springs, mounts etc. I got a great price after rebate from Amazon - $320/ all 4. However, after looking them over, the springs look kinda gimpy compared to the OEM spring stock. I might still go get some Moog CC's and trim them. Funny thing I just noticed, AZ has their typical Duralast springs FCS858C and lists the ALTERNATE PART NUMBER AS CC858 (front) - Moog's cargo coil number. Does anyone know if their Duralast is actually a Moog Cargo Coil?

 

[FamilySHO]

You can get a West Coast subframe with some factory paint still on it and minimal surface rust from Shosource. This is what I did when rust caused the rear of my subframe to let loose. With cross country shipping from Washington State to the local Greyhound bus stop in New York the cost was about $280. I could have gotten one cheaper in the Northeast, but with the driving cost etc. I figured it worked out about the same. Plus, there's the time spent driving to pick up. And then there's the Northeast rust factor....

 

[shown]

Update

Hey guys, I've been busy tearing into this mess. I went to Toms (thanks again, Tom!) and picked up the subframe in a misrable sideways 37 degree rain - almost got hit twice - very close. Anyway, after a difficult seven hour round trip I got home and sent the subframe off to my friend's house. He took one of my aluminum subframe bushings as a template and he's going to stiffen the ends since they were paper thin (even had a bit of missing lip).

Meanwhile, I dropped my subframe (cut my Y pipes since the studs would have broken anyway), broke a front mount bolt (but got the cage nut replaced without even taking the AC loose), dropped the transaxle and clutch -going for the oil pan gasket and main seals withthe carrier plate too. Then I'll finally be able to get this whole mess together again.

I took some pix - clutch looks good, but seemed to slip sometimes and never bit hard if I ever dumped it (rarely). Seems like it might be glazed, but I'm not an expert. Disk looks good, fingers are worn, and TOB sleeve is scored quite a bit.

And yes, someone needs to show me how to upload full screen pix...

 

[rubydist]

well, the flywheel is clearly glazed and must be cleaned up. I cannot tell from the photo if the pressure plate has the same type of crud on it or not. maybe someone replaced the clutch and pp but did not clean up the flywheel??

in any event, that is the result of too much slipping the clutch by someone.

 

[shown]

well, the flywheel is clearly glazed and must be cleaned up. I cannot tell from the photo if the pressure plate has the same type of crud on it or not. maybe someone replaced the clutch and pp but did not clean up the flywheel??

in any event, that is the result of too much slipping the clutch by someone.

Thanks for the opinion. Yes, the PP has the same look - I would guess we'd call it glaze. It could be from the previous owner who had it installed about 10,000 mi before I got it, but that was almost 90k ago, so I doubt it. I could have done it, when I had a bad water temperature sensor for a stretch and it was running in open loop even when cold (or maybe that's closed loop?) Anyway, it had zero torque for the first 2 minutes and I had to rev high and gently launch for the first corner or two. I did that for a few months until I finally figured out the water temp sensor was to balme. Other than that, my daily driver has been a manual trans almost non-stop since my '65 Malibu SS in 1979, and I've only replaced one clutch in those 32 years. Maybe this is just a result of the rear main leaking?

Either way, I aim to fix her up. I'm going to order the parts tonight. Stock clutch & PP, new TOB witih repair sleeve, new front and rear main seal, carrier plate gasket, oil pan gasket, axle seals. I think that's it. I'm dropping the flywheel off tonight for a grind job.

One more issue I'd like to know about. Does anyone know were I might find the crash parts index? My Ford service manual has a few body part numbers mixed in, but skips the structural parts of the body. I bet the body shops have long ago tossed their books for cars this old. I could use the numbers for the steel pans that span between the upper rail and lower rail and in front of the strut towers up to the core support. Mine are missing the entire center (found it when I pulled the air box).The other side has a big chunk missing under the battery tray from my old fire hydrant mishap in 07.

 

[typhoon5000]

One more issue I'd like to know about. Does anyone know were I might find the crash parts index? My Ford service manual has a few body part numbers mixed in, but skips the structural parts of the body. I bet the body shops have long ago tossed their books for cars this old. I could use the numbers for the steel pans that span between the upper rail and lower rail and in front of the strut towers up to the core support. Mine are missing the entire center (found it when I pulled the air box).The other side has a big chunk missing under the battery tray from my old fire hydrant mishap in 07.

I don't know what the part numbers are, but when I had some rust on my '95 on that panel in front of the strut tower to the core support, I found one from a '00 Taurus fits right in there. The hole for the intake into the fender was moved a bit forward compared to the '95, but I have a CAI, so it was flexible enough to just move with it. I pulled it off of a rust free junked one by drilling out all of the welds and rewelding it. I'm not sure if you're willing to go to a junkyard and drill out all of the panels you need though. I doubt they make them new anymore.

 

[93rev2sev]

I found one from a '00 Taurus fits right in their. The hole for the intake into the fender was moved a bit forward compared to the '95, but I have a CAI, so it was flexible enough to just move with it. I pulled it off of a rust free junked one by drilling out all of the welds and rewelding it. I'm not sure if you're willing to go to a junkyard and drill out all of the panels you need though. I doubt they make them new anymore.

holy crap...you did all that? I didn't know. ugh...huge job!

 

[typhoon5000]

holy crap...you did all that? I didn't know. ugh...huge job!

I did it while I had the car stripped down for the paint job, so it wasn't as bad, plus I was working at a body shop at the time so I had all of the proper tools available

 

[shown]

I owe everyone an update - but I've been busy for sure! I had my friend weld up the subframe from Tom, then I sandblasted it. I went to the local Family Farm and Home store and picked up our favorite color tractor paint - Ford Blue. C'mon - you know you love it! I shot it with a hardner - cost under $20 for the paint- hardner (I had reducer). My dad was here for Christmas and he stayed another day and helped me get the new Sach's clutch kit in - as well as the trans mounted and the subframe with solid aluminum bushings in. I'll have to get ya'll a completed pic when I get the Y pipe fixed.