MTX Reverse Shift Relay Lever/Syncro Hub Insert

[Rockledge]

MTX Reverse Shift Relay Lever/Syncro Hub Insert (Pics)

Looking for some fairly technical advice on the MTX, hoping someone here can help me out.

Some people may recall my recent thread describing a "no reverse" condtion after dropping the tranny and replacing the clutch on my SHO.

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=56020

Well I've taken out the tranny again and cracked it open for examination. The first issue I came across is that I think a small part somewhere in the tranny came loose, since it essentially fell off/out of the assembly right after I removed the case. I found it on the bench and I know it wasn't there when I started.

From what I can gather from the Ford Manual diagrams, it looks like the piece shown above might be a Synchronizer Hub Insert. Can anyone confirm that for me? If so, is there any way I can tell which synchro it came off of? Based on what I've stated in this and my other thread, is there any reason why it might have come off?

Secondly, after a close examination of the tranny internals with my admittedly inexperienced eyes, the only other mechanical thing I could find is related to the Reverse Shift Relay Lever. The end of the lever has a "slot" ground into it that does not look like it belongs there. You can see how the metal has been disturbed at the end where this "slot" is.

Again, I'm hoping to get confirmation that the lever is not suspposed to look like it does in the above pic. I'm also wondering if this (and/or the synchro hub insert) could be the cause of my "no reverse" condition. And thinking ahead a little, I am also wondering if the lever (Ford base part# 7K002) is available anywhere?

As far as I can tell, the rest of the tranny looks to be in good shape, the gears all look sound with no chips or missing teeth or anything along those lines. So I'd like to see if I can get it back together again.

Thanks for any feedback on this.

 

[ManySHOs]

I cannot see any of the pictures because I am at work and many photo image hosting sites are blocked. However, I was wondering if you had problems putting the detent plunger bolt back in or that other bolt that sits up front and points down towards the ground. For the life of me I can't remember what it's called but I believe it has something to do with a shaft that's related to reverse. If you did manage to thread those bolts all the way in, you're probably fine (as far as the bolts go)...

Ian

 

[Rockledge]

I was wondering if you had problems putting the detent plunger bolt back in or that other bolt that sits up front and points down towards the ground. For the life of me I can't remember what it's called but I believe it has something to do with a shaft that's related to reverse. If you did manage to thread those bolts all the way in, you're probably fine (as far as the bolts go)...

Ian, I think you might be talking about the "Gear Selector Interlock Sleeve Retaining Pin" which is actually the bolt that many people use to drain their tranny...? I actually had some similar thoughts along those same lines. However, I had no problem threading that bolt/pin back in when I drained the fluid (which in fact I just had to do again when I dropped the tranny for the second time). Moreover, now that I have it opened up, I can see the sleeve inside the tranny that the interlock bolt/pin is meant to retain, and there are no marks or streaks etc. on it which would indicate that there was a problem with the positioning of the bolt/pin.

Thanks for the feedback, hopefully you can see the pics at some point.

 

[TYSHO]

The detent plunger that Ian was talking about is that cap shaped metal piece with the spring inside that you have to push in and slide the casing over the shaft and thread the little 8mm head bolt.


Those are definately hub inserts for a synchronizer. At this time, I did something with all of my synchronizers and they're not here so I can't verify, but what I'm wanting to think 5th gear does not have hub assemblies, then it just might. It would make since if they came from the 5th gear synchronizer, as I've read it's tied into reverse.

For the reverse lever, it's messed up. If you need one quickly, let me know. I have one sitting right here beside the computer. Also, check your magnet and make sure there's not other inserts inside the casing. If any of them are chewed up and ruined, let me know because I have extras.

 

[gmorrell]

That's some interesting damage, it looks like the end of the reverse shift relay lever wasn't fully into the groove on the bottom of the reverse idler gear. When you bolt the relay lever bracket to the case, there is some play in the mounting holes, and you have to make sure the end of the lever is fully into the slot on the idler gear before tightening the bolts.

Those are synchro hub inserts you got there in the first picture. I would pop off the bearing and 5th gear from the top of the 5th gear shaft, then pull out the blocking ring to see if all three inserts are present. The 5th synchronizer is really the only one that can spit out its inserts, especially if it got pushed too far in the wrong direction. This can happen when you're disassembling the case if the synchro cone rises too far up towards the 5th gear, it can eject the inserts out below the outer sleeve.

The 1/2 and 3/4 synchros are pretty tightly captured in the 1-4 gearstack, I'd be surprised if the inserts were from the 1-4 stack, but if the 5th synchro has all its inserts, you'd best disassemble the 1 thru 4 gearstack and make sure its all O.K. You'll need some hefty external snap ring pliers for the 1-4 stack, and pay attention to how the synchro assemblies are placed on the stack: The 3/4 will go on either way, but it only works right one way. If you get it wrong, the upper bearing won't seat on its shoulder anyway.

 

[Rockledge]

Great feedback, thanks.

FWIW, I didn't take the tranny apart the first time I had it out, so there was no reason for me to remove the detent plunger assembly at that time. The only thing I removed was the interlock bolt/pin for the purpose of draining the fluid.

I guess it's time to dig in a little deeper. Sounds like checking the 5th synchro first to see if that's where the insert came from is the way to go.

I'll post back with my findings.

 

[ManySHOs]

Great feedback, thanks.

FWIW, I didn't take the tranny apart the first time I had it out, so there was no reason for me to remove the detent plunger assembly at that time. The only thing I removed was the interlock bolt/pin for the purpose of draining the fluid.

I guess it's time to dig in a little deeper. Sounds like checking the 5th synchro first to see if that's where the insert came from is the way to go.

I'll post back with my findings.

That interlock bolt pin was what I was referring to when I couldn't remember the name. That's been known to cause a lot of problems when removed. While the trans case is apart, I'd install a drain plug for future fluid drainage.

Ian

 

[gmorrell]

That interlock bolt pin was what I was referring to when I couldn't remember the name. That's been known to cause a lot of problems when removed. While the trans case is apart, I'd install a drain plug for future fluid drainage.

Ian

Yep, shift fork interlock retaining pin/bolt. If you move the shifter while this pin is out, you're basically screwed and will likely have to remove and disassemble the trans to reposition it. Draining the trans through this bolt will get you all but about the last quart from the transaxle, stop being a wuss and install a drain plug.

The other bolt (some of...) you might be thinking of fixes the top of the reverse idler gear shaft to the trans case.

 

[Rockledge]

Draining the trans through this bolt will get you all but about the last quart from the transaxle, stop being a wuss and install a drain plug. .

OK Gary, I've already printed out your instructions from SHOTimes, and there will be a drain plug installed before the tranny gets sealed back up. No more baloney here.

FYI, I just got done putting back the renegade synchro insert into it's proper location. Interestingly, I looked over the 5th synchro first and was a little surprised to see all the inserts were there. So then of course I started to take apart the main shaft assembly and - lo and behold - when I got down to the first synchro on the shaft (3/4 I think?) I saw an open slot where the insert was supposed to be. I fiddled with it a little more and slipped the insert back into place and then quickly put it all back together. I then let out a big sigh of relief and asked myself again whether I was in over my head.

TYSHO is sending me another reverse shift relay lever so I should be able to get the tranny back together in fairly short order. Then I'll just keep my fingers crossed and see what happens. :corn:

BTW, I have the anaerobic sealant, but is there any other tricks to resealing the case, like for example, getting the bearing assemblies and shims to line up?

 

[TYSHO]

I saw an open slot where the insert was supposed to be. I fiddled with it a little more and slipped the insert back into place and then quickly put it all back together.

Make sure that the insert is secure by both spring clips. If not, it will pop out again. To insure you put it back in correctly, it wouldn't hurt to slide the synchronizer off and go about it with it in your hands. There's 2 springs and the lower one you might not have noticed if you just slid it back in place.

 

[ManySHOs]

Yep, shift fork interlock retaining pin/bolt. If you move the shifter while this pin is out, you're basically screwed and will likely have to remove and disassemble the trans to reposition it. Draining the trans through this bolt will get you all but about the last quart from the transaxle, stop being a wuss and install a drain plug.

The other bolt (some of...) you might be thinking of fixes the top of the reverse idler gear shaft to the trans case.

lol-I actually had a problem with this last month when I reassembled my tranny after installing a temp sender in it. I couldn't get the bolt back in so we ended up tipping the transmission upside down until something clicked into place and the bolt threaded in the rest of the way. I have 700 miles on the 3.2/trans, etc and all is well. Whew!

Ian

 

[Rockledge]

Make sure that the insert is secure by both spring clips. If not, it will pop out again. To insure you put it back in correctly, it wouldn't hurt to slide the synchronizer off and go about it with it in your hands. There's 2 springs and the lower one you might not have noticed if you just slid it back in place.

I did see the bottom spring clip, thanks for the heads up.

 

[Rockledge]

lol-I actually had a problem with this last month when I reassembled my tranny after installing a temp sender in it. I couldn't get the bolt back in so we ended up tipping the transmission upside down until something clicked into place and the bolt threaded in the rest of the way. I have 700 miles on the 3.2/trans, etc and all is well. Whew!

Ian

Note to self. If interlock bolt doesn't feel like it's seating properly, tip tranny upside down and pray for clicking sound...

.

 

[TYSHO]

Note to self. If interlock bolt doesn't feel like it's seating properly, tip tranny upside down and pray for clicking sound...

.

An easier way, and safer, is to look in the bolt hole and adjust the slot inside, that way it aligns to where the bolt can go through. If you look, you'll see what I'm talking about. Just be sure not to put a lot of force into it and knock it out of place.

 

[shojuan]

lol-I actually had a problem with this last month when I reassembled my tranny after installing a temp sender in it.

Where did you install your sender? I was driving myself a little bit crazy earlier this week pondering how I ought to go about it. I'd like to plumb a nice fitting for a cooler pump as well for future track use. The install that Gary did for Shoaz's car looks like a winner in that the plumbing isn't exposed on the bottom. Here's a pic: http://www.shoforum.com/showpost.php?p=472067&postcount=26
I think Gary tapped a 3/8 NPT hole, drilling through the boss reinforcement plate some cars have (like mine) and then used a 3/8 NPT to 8 AN adapter and then a n 8 AN 90 degree fitting like an Earl's Swiveloc. I'm thinking, perhaps hopefully that a 1/8 NPT to 6 AN fitting might be sufficient, especially if some of the better Earl's hose is used (tends to have bigger ID). Shoot, their fancy ultra-flex 650 hose in the AN 6 size has an ID of .394" and a minimum bend radius allowance of .787"...might not even have to use an angle fitting. Anyways, I'm thinking moving the hole over a bit compared to where it is in Eric's pic and then tapping an 1/8 NPTF fitting for a temp sender right alongside. I'd like to use dryseal (NPTF) for the sender because no sealing compound required if the sender is also NPTF (I'm thinking Nordskog's). No sealing compound = a good ground. Not sure if I can make a good enough NPTF hole though. Also, I couldn't find extended length NPT tapered pipe reamers. The only "small" diameter tap extension I could find (I'd have to drill a 1/2"+ hole through the plate) would require a reduced shank 1/8 NPT tap. Fine, I can get a good reduced shank 1/8NPT tap (same size shank as 1/16" NPT). However, I can NOT find reduced shank 1/8 NPT taper reamer! I'm thinking I'd have to make my own. Perhaps weld some flat cold rolled rectangles to the end of some cold rolled stock roughly the same size as the tap shank flats. Or maybe box two angle pieces and weld those to the cold rolled stock. Total Mickey Mouse.

Like I said I was driving myself a bit crazy. Too bad Gary hasn't pieced together a good guide for doing a clean temp sender and mtx pump feed a la his famous drain plug guide *hint hint*.

Curious what you did. I'm to the point where I think I'll just do the drain plug now and postpone the temp sender and side pump feed fitting for later. Pondering the best approach really seemed to get in the way of me finishing my Quaife install/rebuild, clutch, rod bearings, CV reboot/rebuilds, paint subframe, wilwoods. Shit, I could install the wilwoods in my sleep and they've been sitting in boxes for months because I've had the car on stands since mid December getting practically nowhere while I get sidetracked in little details like this. I must be the ADD King! Total overfocus on piddly crap.

For a whole week now the Quaife has sat, ring gear and speedo gear installed, bearings installed, shim selected and installed in case (the only NEW shim I had in addition to my used + 1 used and it turns out to be the exact shim I need! What luck! I mean exact... .043 on my depth micrometer. Just right for my new 1.1mm shim going by the standard fitting method. Although Terry said that Gary said going up .002 to .003 when going with a Quaife is recommended because it's steel, not Al. That would have been a 1.15mm shim. But I had the 1.10mm new in my paws!) Also on my workbench sits my main and 5th shafts with new synchros and blockers. For a week. Case half mating surfaces clean. Bolts and holes chased. No fitting/plug holes drilled. Sigh.

 

[gmorrell]

Here's a pic: http://www.shoforum.com/showpost.php?p=472067&postcount=26
I think Gary tapped a 3/8 NPT hole, drilling through the boss reinforcement plate some cars have (like mine) and then used a 3/8 NPT to 8 AN adapter and then a n 8 AN 90 degree fitting like an Earl's Swiveloc. Like I said I was driving myself a bit crazy. Too bad Gary hasn't pieced together a good guide for doing a clean temp sender and mtx pump feed a la his famous drain plug guide *hint hint*.
Sigh.

Wow, such agony. I'm flattered.

It's really very easy. I drill through the reinforcing boss and into the tranny case with a 37/64th drill, then I use a 3/8" pipe tap that I shortened by cutting about a 1/4" off the wrenching flats, so it fits between the boss and the case. I apply some pressure to it with a big punch through the hole in the boss while turning it with an open end wrench.

The fitting is a 90º 3/8" male pipe swivel to -8 AN male, Earls 922108. The 3/8 male pipe part swivels so the fitting can be wrenched into the tapped hole.

I use this tap like once every 2 years, like to borrow it Rick?

 

[ManySHOs]

Where did you install your sender? I was driving myself a little bit crazy earlier this week pondering how I ought to go about it. I'd like to plumb a nice fitting for a cooler pump as well for future track use. The install that Gary did for Shoaz's car looks like a winner in that the plumbing isn't exposed on the bottom.

When I had my trans out, Bob Bruce came over to help me install hose barbs in my case so I could set up a plumbing system like his in the future. What we found was interesting. I'm running a gen1 transmission with less reinforced areas than a gen2 trans. Bob's 92 trans was actually cast differently. Because I had already drilled and tapped a hole for my temp sender, we ended up not doing anything because the hole that I drilled didn't allow for more holes in the area nor was it the best hole to try to bore out larger. I have a picture of where my sender is; I'll have to find it and post it. For reference, it's on the forward facing side of the bellhousing and fairly low (parallell to the ground).

Ian